denying holocausts

[mdk]

interesting article.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...74&ItemID=9406

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

Monbiot was interviewed on a really good programme last night on Channel 4 about the british 'Holocaust Memorial Day".. which Blair started in the late nineties.

Anyway the programme was about how it's a problem that Jewish culture seems entirely defined by the Holocaust these days, and how despite vague murmurings from the government that this day covers '"all holocausts" how its a completely exclusive day for the Jewish Holocaust. i.e. It isn't explicitly a memorial for the holocaust of the african slave trade, or the holocaust of the 29 million Indians allowed to die in unneccesary famine under the rule of the British (mentioned in that article too).

[love_tempo]

...or the estimated 1 million Irish people that were starved to death by the British empire on it's own doorstep. Which is appalling considering both the amount of food that was being exported and the fraction of the population that figure represents.

It's always funny to compare the versions of the shared Irish and British history that Irish and British students are presented with.

The british one is roughly as follows:
* Plucky fellows cross the waves and civilise the world with a few inevitable mistakes along the way. They leave peacably when asked and feel happy that their good work is done.

The irish versions reads:
* Brutal oppressors rape a countries wealth, culture and people. Hundreds of years of desperate struggle to overthrow the invader ensue.

But you can see that there are strong political reasons for not emphasising these events. For one thing, it would just heighten tensions in Northern Ireland.

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

You know I don't remember ever doing any Irish history.. i think I remember "irish regiments" being mentioned in battles.. (i.e bullet catchers).

[V Knid esq]

We were taught Irish history at secondary school, including the brutality of the Black & Tans etc.

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

I never did history GCSE, it was all cavemen, bronze, iron ages.. monarchy and world wars.

[V Knid esq]

I didn't do the GCSE, this was aged about 13 I think. But it was an exception, overall I think British culpability in bad doings was not given a lot of prominence.

[spoon]

the case against orhan pamuk has been dropped as expected.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4637886.stm

[darrell]

http://www.irishholocaust.org/

[e_wann]

its just crap that every single country has it's own holocaust story: sad sad history of humans-nature, and the saddest thing of all: it still happens and people just won't learn form its past nore present

[spoon]

Originally Posted by darrell

http://www.irishholocaust.org/

such melodrama. where are the animated gifs of starving leprachauns?

i've seen this site before...it's a bit OTT.

[darrell]

Originally Posted by spoon

it's a bit OTT.

The site or the murders ?

[spoon]

the site

plausable denyablity. same reason they dont tell the president of USA of the alien technology they reverse engineeer on a daily basis at th Dulce test facility.
reason i know about it is cus my dad has a Q17 clearance and he told me about it.

[love_tempo]

Categorising the Irish and indian famines as 'holocausts' is sheer melodrama anyway. Very few reasonable people are of the opinion that the end results were deliberate, planned or even secretly desired. Just another case of gross incompentence and greed.

HIV infection rates in the third world are similar. We need a new word in the english dictionary to describe the greed and complacency of wealthy nations leading to the decimation of others. The word holocaust is overloaded.

[darrell]

As no Jewish person would ever refer to the "Jewish Oxygen Famine of 1939 - 1945", so no Irish person ought ever refer to the Irish Holocaust as a famine

[decadnids]

hol·o·caust P Pronunciation Key (hl-kôst, hl-)
n.
Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.

...

[decadnids]

intresting report on the dresden holocaust

http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

To kill people en mass is in my book at least. Wrong. HOw can people in this thread deny the truth. O ok dont tell me the grass is made from metal and the sun is really a massive lightbulb suspended in space by a squirell. people on this forum really make me angry sometimes

[decadnids]

phil i am sure you've posted that before. - had massive deja vu reading that reply.

Originally Posted by decadnids

phil i am sure you've posted that before. - had massive deja vu reading that reply.

How sure? sure enough to place money on it?
I challenge you to do a search on this forum for the word Squirrel. If u find my name anywhere near it I'll pay into your paypal account 30 pounds. Because its simply not true. You are creating a dangerous climate. a psychotic world. a world where i dont want to be thats for darn sure.

[decadnids]

not that sure, its deja vu - never sure when that happens. maybe it was a dream, a dream about this thread.

if ur dreaming about hologram denial then i think a course of Olanzapine could be in order. Holograms happen. its all about Lasers. like photogaphy.

[spoon]

Originally Posted by darrell

As no Jewish person would ever refer to the "Jewish Oxygen Famine of 1939 - 1945", so no Irish person ought ever refer to the Irish Holocaust as a famine

you see, we don't really pay any attention to irish-americans over here. they are mental and they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

[darrell]

Originally Posted by spoon

you see, we don't really pay any attention to irish-americans over here. they are mental and they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

you see, we don't really pay any attention to peeps on the net over here. they are mental and they don't have a clue what they are talking about

[spoon]

Originally Posted by darrell

you see, we don't really pay any attention to peeps on the net over here. they are mental and they don't have a clue what they are talking about

even better

[Patrick]

The way I see it, the british may have given us the famine.
But we, in turn, definitely gave Graham Norton to the british.
I'd say that just about evens things up.

[joe pinapples]

don't forget



or



we haven't

[Spandex]

Originally Posted by love_tempo

Categorising the Irish and indian famines as 'holocausts' is sheer melodrama anyway. Very few reasonable people are of the opinion that the end results were deliberate, planned or even secretly desired. Just another case of gross incompentence and greed.

I think the problem is that "holocaust" has come to mean "what the Nazi's did to the Jews" (for me anyway)... but there needs to be some word to describe something like the Indian famine that's closer to "holocaust" than "accident"... after all, if I decide to go out and burn down lots of houses because I'm cold then you could argue that the resulting deaths were just down to my "gross incompetence" as I tried to keep warm But you have to evaluate actions in terms of their likely consequences... you can't escape things like that by playing down "callously causing millions to starve" as merely "mismanaging import/export quotas"... tho of course that's EXACTLY what governments try to do all the time init.. you're allowed to question their competence.. but never the intent.

You're right, the word "holocaust" is ceasing to be useful because it's so loaded and so varied in meaning for different people. I think the word "democracy" is going the same way :/

[love_tempo]

Thanks spandex, that's exactly what I meant. The word holocaust has very specific meaning to most people. We need an equally horrible word for passively letting people die in droves when you could easily prevent it.

The problem with events like the Irish Famine is that people think that there has to be an overriding master plan for something like that to happen. But disasters like that occur all the time due to sheer ignorance, greed and incompetance. There's lots of countries with > 40% HIV infection rates now. And unlike Potato blight in the 19th century, we know and have the means to treat the problem.

But we don't, and it's not really because the west wants those people to die. They simply don't care enough, can't be bothered and have financial interests to protect. Just like the Irish and Indian famines.

But I don't think you would really categorise it as a holocaust in the sense we usually mean that word today. It's not that I think it's any better morally, it is just different. In fact, I think it might be worse because it's more insidious and more commonplace.

People tend to notice more if you actively kill people that if you passively let them die.