wtf is going on in france?

[FiST]

bit out of the news loop these days since i don't have a t.v., but did see that things are proper kicking off all over france at the moment.

crazyness.

[V Knid esq]

I want to know what the french hip hop world has to say about it all. It's La Haine x 100,000!

[FiST]

that's pretty much what i thought when i saw what was going on. proper La Haine action.

[V Knid esq]

Just seen La Haine has gone from position of 3,000 ish to around 100 in amazon.com's video chart in the last week!

I've spent years talking about this shit and how fucked up France is... only to be told its lovely and how much people like going on holiday there and how great the (awful) food is.

The social model is very, very wrong, added to too many french people are fundamentally racist or at a minimum extremely jinogistic. If you exclude anybody that isn't a born national from society what do you expect?

I'd laugh very hard if it wasn't so fucked up.

[Whuffle]

I love a lot of things about France, but i have found "them" to be snobby about so many things.., and with so little else to back it up with. French wine is the best because? ITS FRENCH. Errr... thats not an argument, thats being an xenophobic, insular, ignorant twat.

imo, its that general non-acceptance of anything not French-conservative, is an attitude that has led to the social injustice we are seeing a backlash against. It'll take a long time to change that attitiude, and these riots will probably enforce it.

[hektor ruiez]

peoples wanting some money cause they ain't got non.

[decadnids]

i was in paris at the end of last month... just before it all kicked off.

i was staying in a suburb that was mainly islamic and black african.

i did notice a huge number of police present in that area.

[phonudja]

Originally posted by JonnySpeed

The social model is very, very wrong, added to too many french people are fundamentally racist or at a minimum extremely jinogistic. If you exclude anybody that isn't a born national from society what do you expect?

Please remember that the people rioting are mostly French, they are not disadvantaged because of their nationality.

Before you charge in with some remark about bad French food or wine or anything - which has nothing to do with the situation in France - ask yourself how riots in Birmingham or Brixton or really anywhere in UK are different from what's happening in France?

Not that I think it's normal, but it's got nothing to do with the French being worse than any other people. Again, the people on both fronts are French.

[V Knid esq]

Originally posted by phonudja


ask yourself how riots in Birmingham or Brixton or really anywhere in UK are different from what's happening in France?

Well compared to any of those riots there were ten times more people rioting for fifteen times as long in France...

[marcel]

[phonudja]

Originally posted by V Knid esq


Well compared to any of those riots there were ten times more people rioting for fifteen times as long in France...

What was surprising about the French riots was how they spread all over the country - and in the end they had some people setting fire to cars in copycat riots in Bremen (Germany) even. I suspect the influence of the media cannot be ignored here.

What is simply shocking is the way the French government going from essential inaction to declaring a state of war on the communities in question. They seem to try to simply lock the problem away. If you see how the French are proud of their political organisation and tradition, this is simply incredible.

I'm not trying to say the French riots is something that could happen virtually anywhere, but I think the reasons for them happening are a bit more complex than simply that the French are idiots.

[phonudja]

I thank Spandex for relieving the tension and giving me an opportunity to play the 'Safety Song' on the radio, after the press reviews from France. Was well appropriate...

[V Knid esq]

Originally posted by phonudja

I'm not trying to say the French riots is something that could happen virtually anywhere, but I think the reasons for them happening are a bit more complex than simply that the French are idiots.

I don't think anyone thinks that. I like a great deal of French people's attitude to work (do as little as possible), food and drink (as much as possible) and other people's opinions ("bof" *shrug*)... but racial segregation is terrible there, and the government's attempts to address it by doing things like banning headscarves in schools etc are so unbelievably hamfisted it's not true. That doesn't make the people stupid, just means the system's corrupt (even more than here)

[phonudja]

Originally posted by V Knid esq


I don't think anyone thinks that. I like a great deal of French people's attitude to work (do as little as possible), food and drink (as much as possible) and other people's opinions ("bof" *shrug*)... but racial segregation is terrible there, and the government's attempts to address it by doing things like banning headscarves in schools etc are so unbelievably hamfisted it's not true. That doesn't make the people stupid, just means the system's corrupt (even more than here)

Absolutely.
I made my comments in reply to people saying you can't expect any better from them because the food and wine are no good.
Of course things needed changing for a very long time now, and anyone who ever took the train to Paris knows what these communities that are now in the news look like. It shows complete disregard for a minority that is obviously treated with disrespect - even if the reason for them being there has also been caused by French politics.

Originally posted by phonudja


Please remember that the people rioting are mostly French, they are not disadvantaged because of their nationality.

... ask yourself how riots in Birmingham or Brixton or really anywhere in UK are different from what's happening in France?

Not that I think it's normal, but it's got nothing to do with the French being worse than any other people. Again, the people on both fronts are French.

Not really. One set are (white) French Nationals the others are 2nd/3rd generation immigrants, who whilst born in France do not have the same opportunities as the whites and are not treated as Nationals but "scum". Excessive unionisation of teaching has kept the good teachers out of schools with high non-white pupils. The non-whites are told by the virtually 100% white authorities (schools, police, job centres) they have no chance of having a career so don't bother.

I know who I think the "scum" is and its not those of immigrant backgrounds.

You seen a black person working on the French rail system? ever? Now go to Waterloo* and have a look around.


* no irony intended

[phonudja]

Originally posted by JonnySpeed
You seen a black person working on the French rail system? ever? Now go to Waterloo* and have a look around.


* no irony intended

I don't see why 'working on the railway system' translates to equal opportunities (where I come from it's a job for immigrant mostly, as Swiss people don't like to get their hands dirty), but I obviously got your comment above about 'native' French people wrong.

Today the French government announced that they will throw all non-French nationals arrested during the riots out of the country - probably to deflect from the problems they have with French nationals, and to make those people happy who think French is white. It's just hard to believe that after about 50 years of trying to get their act together in relation to their former colonies they are still so hypocritical about it. "Wanquaires!"

Seen any black people on French TV recently? You could almost think they didn't exist. That's why its kicked off, imho.

[brettacid]

Originally posted by JonnySpeed
Seen any black people on French TV recently? You could almost think they didn't exist. That's why its kicked off, imho.

i recon there's quite a few black people on french tv at the moment, mainly the news.

[anarchosyn]

So, umm.. How racist is france these days? I'm an american with very little direct connection to france (I live about as FAR from france as you can get in an industrialized, western civilization), but have been learning the language (slowly) over the last year in hopes of going to visit.. ohh, and I'm brown. Humm, I know that during the imperialistic days france was VERY MUCH a racist country, but so was everywhere else during that period.

As a black amerikkkan, do you think I'd encounter racist attitudes traveling in france?

[shuttlecart]

i've got a mate who lives in paris who detests the police over there..they regularly stop him to check his papers..but only in summer..because he looks vaguely arab when hes got a suntan..

Originally posted by anarchosyn
As a black amerikkkan, do you think I'd encounter racist attitudes traveling in france?

yes. you have it doubly bad. White French people don't talk to Americans or Black people. Sorry but true. You rank as less than zero in the eyes of the average French person.

Shame you didn't learn Spanish.

[anarchosyn]

Originally posted by JonnySpeed


yes. you have it doubly bad. White French people don't talk to Americans or Black people. Sorry but true.

Not that I don't trust you Jonny, but does everybody else second this opinion? Anybody disagree in fits of rage?

My classical "A level" studies were in sociological thought (post-structuralist clap-trap mainly), so I ask more from a position of analytical curiosity than doubt, jonny. From what I know historically of the french, and their enlightened outlooks, you're probably right. Are the southern belgian any sunnier in this disposition? They're basically french, right? )

Originally posted by JonnySpeed
You rank as less than zero in the eyes of the average French person.

That's ok, I hold that status in my country as well.

[V Knid esq]

Interesting that the race issue is still the number one even in most of the liberal media e.g. BBC - from the very beginning you'd think it was at the centre of the rioting. Yet the report in the Independent yesterday said a "substantial majority" of the rioters are either French born or of other European origin. But having white people causing trouble is all a bit confusing for the viewers/readers, isn't it? Especially as it would involve a discussion of CLASS relations, which we don't have in the modern world, do we?

don't get me wrong. If you know people and you get in with a good crowd - like anywhere you will have a good time. But you'll probably feel the anti-American thing the most - as one of my best Friends does alot in London. English people can be very Anti-American too. After all it is your person fault what the Christian right is doing to the world, inn't it.

The racism will be less obvious.

Another one to watch for is if your French isn't pretty perfect. I regularly get people just look at me blankly when I say something in perfectly good French if my pronunciation is out a little. My mate (who's fluent) says its not that they mean to be rude but they are simply, honestly find it difficult to understand with an Anglesized accent.

[anarchosyn]

Originally posted by V Knid esq
Interesting that the race issue is still the number one even in most of the liberal media e.g. BBC - from the very beginning you'd think it was at the centre of the rioting. Yet the report in the Independent yesterday said a "substantial majority" of the rioters are either French born or of other European origin. But having white people causing trouble is all a bit confusing for the viewers/readers, isn't it? Especially as it would involve a discussion of CLASS relations, which we don't have in the modern world, do we?

We both have heard this, but I think we're interpreting it differently. You hear "French born" and image french (white) people - I hear "french born" and assume second - third generation immigrant (non-white).

So, which is it? Or both?

When Katrina hit New Orleans recently the media also had a racist slant (as we all probably heard discussed a bit here and there, as if that absolved the tendency). Again, the vids showed primarily dark faces but I'm certain a large percentage of poor whites were caught up in it all (so, I guess I can image your point being correct).

In america, though, 99% (if not 100%) of the early coverage described the rioters in France as of arab / Muslim decent (I stopped paying attention after the second day). I was actually surprised when a week later I read an article in the foreign press that cast these kids in African shades of complexion. Now they're white?

I's flummoxed, I is.

Originally posted by JonnySpeed
don't get me wrong. If you know people and you get in with a good crowd - like anywhere you will have a good time. But you'll probably feel the anti-American thing the most - as one of my best Friends does alot in London. English people can be very Anti-American too. After all it is your person fault what the Christian right is doing to the world, inn't it.

Heh, I'm pretty anti-amerikkkan myself. The trick is to lob some self deprecation at yourself, then turning one's knowledge of European colonial misdeeds on the attackers.

I'm a man without a country.

*cough* ok, my o'pining is over.

Funny though that France seems so progressive in social attitudes towards war, sex, smoking, healthcare, life in general - yet can still hold onto such dated, xenophobic attitudes.