what do heads on this board think about detroit techno?

[Mercedez Ben]

this thread stems from some hear-say from a few years ago. something about neil landstrum badmouthing jeff mills. this was unsubstantiated and i've been wondering ever since. i'm a fan of the brighton sound so i just want to get it straight.

and i won't be offended either way. i'm bored with most of the cookie-cutter knock-off cuts i hear. so i'm curious what people think. i know this is a pretty broad question...

[public]

neil never bad mouthed jeff mills - he bad mouthed all the idiots who tried to clone jeff mills.

[Mercedez Ben]

where does he or you draw the line? who are the idiots? who's original?

[V Knid esq]

and it's been a long time since you could describe Jeff Mills or the people who ape him as 'Detroit Techno', surely?

[Mercedez Ben]

is there an article/interview or something that I could refer to?

[Mercedez Ben]

yeah, i guess it's pretty much world-wide. so i guess i'm asking two questions here.

1. what was said about mills/mills inspired or imitating producers?

2. what do people think about new/old detroit techno. really, is there some disdain for it within this part of the spectrum? again, all this stems from these rumors i heard so i'm just trying to get some vague stuff straight in my head.

[nothinghere]

Techno from Detroit is great expecially FTM Records:p

[public]

there was a time some years ago when nearly all of the new techno records were imitating jeff mills , and it was very boring.

i am sure everyone who comes here loves a lot of classic detroit techno. i know i love KMS, UR, juan atkins, blake baxter, dbx, jeff mills etc. a lot of so-called 'brighton' records sound very detroit-inspired i think. just a bit more wonky.

[Mercedez Ben]

Originally posted by public
there was a time some years ago when nearly all of the new techno records were imitating jeff mills , and it was very boring.

no doubt! i bitched and moaned with the best of them.


[i]i am sure everyone who comes here loves a lot of classic detroit techno. i know i love KMS, UR, juan atkins, blake baxter, dbx, jeff mills etc. a lot of so-called 'brighton' records sound very detroit-inspired i think. just a bit more wonky. [/B]

that's good to hear. i've wondered about brighton and probably let my imagination run. i honestly never saw how one could dispense the detroit sound so it was definitely a test for me to reconcile the idea of neil landstrum putting the dis down on it. sequentially brighton actually came before detroit for me.

damn rumorville.

[arar]

This kind of topic has come a few times before on this and other boards..... I was well into Mr Mills for a while and think Scan7 has produced some seriously good records that have got less attetion than they deserved....Im pretty keen on the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Inverness/Brighton/nottingham/Chicago/New York et al sound..its a continuum isnt it?

[mr_chombee]

it's all the same. there's just GOOD and BAD music. nuff said...

[tsr_tomas]

once again i get the chans to tell you all on the board that as long as the dist is so hard that you can barly hear the diffrence between the basdrum and the snare. you be alright... cause if the dist isn´t hard enough people start to rip one and other or try to make some thing diffrent..... let the dist live.

[Tomoki]

I love the Detroit sound as well. Especially Marshall Jefferson stuff, UR, Carl Craig, Theo Parrish…

Copy some ones sound as happened with the Jeff Mills is boring.

What’s better in your opinion?
A good copy or a bad new track?
lol

[mr_chombee]

What’s better in your opinion?
A good copy or a bad new track?

a good new track lol

but the recordstores are full of crap. it seems like a lot producers have lost their creativity or never had it. it's for sure hard to create something new and in my opinion it is not neccessary to do so. detroit techno always ruled my life since I've put my feets the first time into the mighty tresor vault in 1994. I'm still playing all that detroit stuff, but unfortunately there are only a hand full of good records out there. the rest is boring loop shit w/o sounds or interesting arrangements.

[Mercedez Ben]

i feel lucky to able to shop at gramaphone because there's always something old or new that's worth a buy.

so what's happening to techno? house surges and techno seems to be shrinking. there's still artists to get excited about but the "wall" is getting so redundant. you just have to dig more and more. that's ok i guess cuz it saves money.

[alex cortex]

uhh, this topic points straight on the basic problem of (lets say) techno nowadays. well, i still find a couple of cool records every month, but hardly ever they are brilliant. i´m waiting for a record giving me the feel of let´s say drexciya´s "black sea", symbols & instruments´ "moods" or kenny larkin´s "tedra" or "carbomite maneuvre". am i nostalgic? realistic?

[mr_chombee]

i´m waiting for a record giving me the feel of let´s say drexciya´s "black sea", symbols & instruments´ "moods" or kenny larkin´s "tedra" or "carbomite maneuvre".

exatly. that's the point.

[Gameboy]

quaint in a retro futurism kind of way,

[Mercedez Ben]

nostalgic realist. any thoughts on why the music has taken this slow turn around a boring curve? is it dying or just waiting to be reborn or both? i don't travel enough to have a really good perspective so maybe some more worldly folks could comment on this.

[alex cortex]

1) first it´s fresh, so the quality is high
2) the sound gets copied, now it´s not fresh anymore
3) money comes in and seduces, even some original creators... always.
4) some of those holding it up are forced to make a living out of it and can´t be offended for this. quality is suffering though.
5) more money comes in and seduces those not rooted in this organism. it´s easy to throw away what you didn´t make yourself.
6) we witness the special situation of this scene meaning the new possibilities of software synthesis etc. this was on this board already... easy access to equipment may mean more morons kickin out records blah blah... i´m absolutely sure that inspired music AND sound control deserve talent. modern equipment with zillions of finalize-or-whatever-plugins won´t solve this problem. on the label print of wavejumper it says: this record was produced [...] on a tascam 4 trk.

[alex cortex]

it would be fair if i mentioned that i only came to producing cos i started using trackers in 94, so i´m part of the movement i just dissed. and my sound is still miserable. but i try hard. this is another point i didn´t mention above. music can only have soul if it is felt whilst being done. but saying this is a bad start for a worse discussion.

[Mercedez Ben]

so in a nutshell, it's commercial success and technological progress that have contributed the most to the souring of techno music as a whole. but what i don't understand is why the proven artists have stopped putting out as much solid music. there really seems to be a lull lately and at this point people are starved for a resurgence. i know i am. and it's REALLY bad here in the US. i get that there is a tremendous lure to make money but is that all there's time for any more? i can't really believe that.

btw alex, i really enjoyed the BATHYAL ep.

[Gameboy]

too easy when your bills are getting paid to want to take a risk on something new...
.
+ most of the "pioneers" are getting on a bit now...

[Tomoki]

Originally posted by Mercedez Ben


btw alex, i really enjoyed the BATHYAL ep.

Definitely, Kanzleramt is one of the better labels nowadays.


Nothing is bad when “the bills are getting” paid, but the love behind the music is essential!

[erik_s]

very interesting! music is such a complex subject to discuss and particulary when only one genre or style is concerned. it tends to get narrow minded. i belive that important music is a most individual matter of opinion. there will always be persons considered to be pioneers or originals, and it may not be the same persons to everybody. if you would ask a 10-year old kid who created rap, he would probably say that eminem is the one while a man in his early 20s with a musical interest would reply sugarhill gang to the same question. just as an exaple...

personally i love diggin roots, but i also can't wait to hear next big thing regardless style or genre. there are of course genres that are more important to me than others e.g. techno. you could'nt possibly count out the bellville boys while describing techno but you don't necessarily have to like the early days to make great techno-music, alltough i could'nt imagine what that would be like :) i think that's very important for the evolution of musical styles.

it's all 'bout soul and own flava, and what you reckon to be soul and own flava. it can be brill or it can be crap, but hey - thats just someones opinion.

god i don't know what im writin anymore... maybe i've jus made a fool of myself.

[Sheridan]

Mercedez, I think that us techno heads that live in the states view detroit differently than people who live out of the country. for me personally, I got into techno via new york by people like frankie bones, adam x, jimmy crash, joey beltram, damon wild. I found a sound through them and then I started to explore the roots of techno and got turned onto the detroit sound. but the funny thing is when I look at all my records I have collected over the years. I have a very small number of records from producers from the US and a huge catalog of records from people in the UK, germany, sweden, japan, wherever. for me I have always loved the european style of techno. but it seems that when talking to people on this board and especially the overload board that more europeans are really into the US sound. I think that detroit is an integral part of techno and it is good to know and understand it, but I look at it as just one facet of a multidimensional entity and I dont put it any higher up than anything else. Detroit has its place, as does brighton, edinburgh, stockholm, etc. thats what I like about techno, that I can listen to really funky soulfull stuff, then listen to wonky abstract stuff, and then listen to loopy stuff. If it is good it is good. but then again it all matters what your taste for techno is and what are you trying to get out of techno. for me techno is a mental thing. not a soul thing. and while I like the soulfull stuff, I really like the abstract stuff and yes (please dont hit me) the loopy stuff. it puts my mind somewhere else which is what I like.
I think the reason for so much crap these days is a combinbation of things. first electronic music (not just techno) as a whole has exploded world wide the past several years. with people like moby, chemical brothers, and fatboy bringing electronic music to MTV you are having new people exposed to it. and of course with the whole clubbing expericene becoming a hip thing to do you a have a mass influx of new people into a scene. now most of those people take it at face value and don't spend the time to find out what started it. so you have uneducated listeners, like what was said before: who invented hip hop; eminem?? you ask some new kid who KRS-One is and 95% of the time they don't know. I tell people I listen to techno here in the states they think, moby, Oakenfold, and shit like that. they don't know what really is what. so these new cats start to produce and they can copy anyone they want because people will eat it. the mass doesn't know the difference. I read on some record list last week of some record that sampled Mills' the BELLS. come on! love it or hate it the bells is probably one of the most recognizable techno tracks there is. but some new kid wont know. he'll hear it and be like, damn this is hot. I remeber seeing derrick may a couple of years ago and during his intro a kid asked me "who is this playing?" I said Derrick may. he says, "who is that?" so I ask do you listen to techno? and he's all like yeah I love techno I listen to blah. blah whatever. so I am wondering how does this kid listen to techno and not know who derrick may is? so it is that lack of education that is really killing the scene, and the total complacency of some of the big guys, I mean when was the last time derrick may released original (not remix) material? I think that the fact that techno has gotten so big it is becoming a crutch in unto itself. even people like jeff mills are slowing down. he doesn't spin that ultra fast and furious style anymore like he used to back in the early and mid 90's. but in the end I am still a huge fan techno in general and yes I wish it was 96 or 97 again, but I still think there is really good stuff out there, you just have to search, which makes it (for me) all that more enjoyable when I do find something.
ok my rant is over, thanks!

[Mercedez Ben]

wow! i don't have time to respond in full because i'm leaving work this minute. tomorrow though. your "rant" definitely deserves some further discussion.

one thing though you said:

for me techno is a mental thing. not a soul thing.

i don't get that. do mean soul in the strict musical sense or in the spiritual sense? if the latter, i don't see how you can seperate the two. and then what about the booty er...uh... body?

[Sheridan]

yes I do mean the Soul as in spirit. electronic music has never been about the soul for me and me only. I am a spiritual person dont get me wrong, but spirituallity comes to me in very different ways that are very far from techno (most of the time). techno tracks hit me more emotionally than spiritually. but very few do. like I said, I am a very mental person. I like to have my mind challenged and expanded. that is what techno means to me. thats why I can listen to jeff mills and then listen to crisitian vogel and get two completely diferent things from it. because there stuff will move my mind in different ways. thats why I try to listen to differing styles of techno. the feeling I get from abstract stuff is not the same as I get from loopy stuff. they both move my mind but in different ways. but in the end I will still move my body. whether it is wonky or loopy or soulfull. the beat is what carries the message. that is how I look at it. the beat whether 4/4, 2/4, 3/4 or whatever the beat moves my body. the beat is just a messanger (vessel) the sound is what stimulates my mind, and my mind stimulation is what moves my soul, but not in a puritanical sense. the fact that my mind is being stimulated is what makes my soul content. I know I am beginning to sound far out so I will stop. I will await your response and try to pick up from there. take care.

[wheezer]

a) I don't like statements like "I wish it were xx again". Though I know where people are coming from, everyone seems to have a different xx, depending on when&where they started out. ask ten technoheads what year the loveparade turned shit, and you'll get 10 different numbers.

b) Personally, I think people like Derrick May are just burned out in a sense, much in the same way like Kraftwerk. They have made tracks that were just stellar at the time of release, and can be considered milestones of their specific genres, and as I see it, you can't just shake another track "like that" out of your sleeve. The pressure is too great! We all know the running jokes with Derrick Mays upcoming album releasedates I presume, and I don't think it's ever coming out, because it just would never live up to the expectations...

btw, has anyone heard the model 600 ep?

[public]

i don't think techno was invented, it was discovered. it came from the machines.

[arar]

Look at any tree and it has a lot of roots (and branches)..every producer who is any good will have an appreciation for music from a variety of times and places..the kind of stuff I listen to and produce has germs from all over the world and music stretching back to "deep" time....people worry to much about the "state" of "techno" I think, I dont care if Derek May ever produces another record (i'd rather listen to me than him actually!)..just like I dont care if Bruce Springsteen produces another record..I still cant afford to buy all the music I like, and I dont want to go back in time to 1977, 1991 or last week...Im not into the cult of the personality..even producers who I have contributed lots of money to over the years by buying their products sometimes produce stuff thats not my cup of tea...life goes on....there are plenty of people making music out their who fall into the same category as the one Bing Crosby put himself into when he said "Ive spent my whole life trading on a piece of talent so thin its transparent" but they're usually less honest than this! There are also plenty of people doing really good stuff as well so why worry?

[wheezer]

I agree arar, I just think it's a bit sad when people just can't get over detroit... there are tons of really great tracks from that place, no doubt, but just like you said, it's silly to wait for people like derrick may to get their ass up and make something which will prolly sound quite tired in the end, when there's literally a world of producers out there...

[Basic]

Originally posted by wheezer
I agree arar, I just think it's a bit sad when people just can't get over detroit... there are tons of really great tracks from that place, no doubt, but just like you said, it's silly to wait for people like derrick may to get their ass up and make something which will prolly sound quite tired in the end, when there's literally a world of producers out there...

I don't think it's people can't get over it, but pay the place it dues like any other city/area involved in the development of what we listen to today. I also think it is a jaded view that when you mention Detroit you can only think of the Belleville three and gauge the sound on their prowess, what about Underground Resistance, Drexciya, Ectomorph, Ersatz Audio artistes (Adult etc), Gary Martin, Keith Tucker, and all those other producers who are currently releasing. As you say, there is a world of producers out there so why not let people appreciate the roots and not hurry away from the sounds first originated then work their way through chronlogically - it certainly wouldn't hurt peeps to gain some insight into how things came about. Of course it can't be all pinpointed to Detroit, but it played it's part as did New York, Chicago, Sheffield etc etc. Everything we here now is a derivative of something, no matter how different you may deem it to be.

[wheezer]

point taken, but I have seen too many people that just try to complete their retroactive collections or get all the original transmat pressings together etc. WITHOUT paying attention to what's really happening today. that's the phenomenon I was referring to. detroit deserves a lot of credit, but I really see it the way you do; detroit is just one element in the whole electronic music scene and development thereof...

personally, I think that I prefer a lot of the 2nd and 3rd generation stuff over the belleville three, but maybe that's because the belleville three were slightly before my techno-time. rest assured that I have plenty of stuff from the names you listed in any case ;)

otoh tracks like "no ufos", "strings of life" or "shari vari" still give me goosebumps...

[Basic]

Yeah, I can agree with that. There are a lot who try to quote it for the trainspotter element and as you say try to track down the original pressings and "go blind" as to what happens to be moving outta there on a weekly basis. Of course it would be nice to have all that shit in it's original form, but if you can get the track on a compilation or whatever, then get it - it's the track that you listen to, not the packaging. I've got a helluvalot of it in the house, but with little of the originals - main reason being I don't wanna fuck up £20 - £40 records when I'm djing, give me a re-press it's just the same and disposable/replacable if the worst happens.

[V Knid esq]

techno is, like, gay.

[Basic]

profound:)

[Mercedez Ben]

i believe it was a quote by neil landstrum saying something like:

forward-thinking music that has a foot in the past.

so a combination of both views a)not getting hung up on old school detroit/Ny/whatever and b)being willing to take risks and do something original coming from you but allowing yourself to be "taught" by the old-school.

I mean, you always draw on your influences no matter whatever else you try to do, right? It's inevitbale. Wynton Marcalis (sp?) tried to say he doesn't draw on his influences, that it's just him. I think that's a crock of shit. But then again, he also said that electronic music isn't really music. Maybe he's really drawing on his jazz influences and shooting shitloads of smack.

[thetonewrecker]

Originally posted by public
it was discovered. it came from the machines.

...and the machines are gonna take it back again. ;-)

[marcel]

i wonder why i never saw any new releases from larkin,pullen and so on for a much too long time now. do they still make music? am i too stupid to find their records?
in the past some of the tracks from detroit (d. may, and especially from the 'second generation') used to be so fucking brilliant. damn i loved it. thats up with them nowadays? does anyone now some news?
and what about carl craig, besides rmxs and mixcd's he didn't release that lot for about 5 years now. will he come up with a new lp in the near future? does anyone here now something?
damn, i really really love 'songs about food and revolutionary art'

btw. how is the innerzone orchestra lp 'programmed'? i never managed to catch it, is it worth the search?

[nothinghere]

As said before Detroit does need to be recognized in the whole scheme of techno, but "I dont care about history cause thats not were I wanna be". Detroit currently is EXTRMELY overrated. Good music comes from all corners of the world. I find it funny how people get all hyped up about detoit and detroit techno. Detroit has become to elitist, clicky, and history idolizers. There is so much good music that is produced here that will not be recognized because of it not fitting in with the status que of Detroit and current detroit producers. To me Detroit and the "scene" if you will, is more like fashion. No longer the music but more of the image. This years past DEMF is a perfect example. It really disturbes me who was left out and who was selected to play (of current producers). But I really could give two shits about who is or has produced what from Detroit, cause I have come to see how overrated it all is.

Mercedes do you ever shop at Weekend Records in Chi-town?

[Airy]

aint nothing like some good detroit stuff.
people like daneil bell and shake, or alot of the UR sound.
i like to spin this music, hear it and dance to it.

the last EPs from shake on frictional and 7th city were both briliant.
he makes AFAIK the best drum programing in the bizz. this is groud breaking music, from detroit. also people like recloose and such.

[erik_s]

i can see the problem nothinghere, and i think this is a universal phenomenon when a city becomes known for it's genre of music and that particular genre tends to overshadow all the other styles, at least in a perspective from the world outside the area. but i do think that location i crucial in a matter of creativity and sound/attitude. without the decadence of the car industry (one of a million reasons, i guess) that left detroit in disress there would probably not be great music comming out of it, wheter it's techno, hiphop or garage rock.

[Sheridan]

but is it physical location or mental location?
could detroit not have spawned techno if the riots of the 70's had not occured?
in an interview I read with juan atkins he described the feeling that detroit had after the riots and how cold and empty the city was, so he started to create this music because it helped him to imagine a world outside of detroit.
that makes perfect sense, but then look at the kind of techno that is created in london, birmingahm, brighton, etc. and stockholm, berlin, gent, cologne, tokyo.
every city has it's own distinct sound and style. but does that style come from the actual physical surroundings or is the overall mental attitude of the region?
could've techno been invented elsewhere and still be the same it is now.
what if techno was invented in london, or berlin, or wherever.
how do you think techno would be different??

[Peezee]

Originally posted by nothinghere
As said before Detroit does need to be recognized in the whole scheme of techno, but "I dont care about history cause thats not were I wanna be". Detroit currently is EXTRMELY overrated. Good music comes from all corners of the world. I find it funny how people get all hyped up about detoit and detroit techno. Detroit has become to elitist, clicky, and history idolizers. There is so much good music that is produced here that will not be recognized because of it not fitting in with the status que of Detroit and current detroit producers. To me Detroit and the "scene" if you will, is more like fashion. No longer the music but more of the image. This years past DEMF is a perfect example. It really disturbes me who was left out and who was selected to play (of current producers). But I really could give two shits about who is or has produced what from Detroit, cause I have come to see how overrated it all is.

Mercedes do you ever shop at Weekend Records in Chi-town?

I have to disagree with some of the ideas here. Elitist and Cliquey I can agree with, but I think that applies to many music sub-genres, not just detroit techno. The problem I have is that there are these detroit techno elitists who won't listen to anything else, and ignore all this great new music. I have been of the 313 mailing list for around 4 years, I know a handful of detroit artists, and I grew up on detroit music and going to detroit parties in the early 90's. This said- the detroit enthusiasts that I know are usually a lot more open minded when it comes to new music than any other group of techno/house/electro headz. This has been the foundation of detroit techno from the early days of the Electrifying Mojo radio shows where everything was played from new wave to r&b, house, techno, disco, experimental, kraut rock, etc. Currently, detroiters have turned me on to interesting new stuff from around the world as well as from newer local talent- granted up&comers are having a harder time now, but this is true everywhere, not just detroit- this is just the result of an expanding market and more competition.

Regarding DEMF - you mentioned the most recent DEMF as a let down- but everyone agrees here, detroit techno headz included- much of the failure this year was due to music politics, artists not performing for political reasons, and bad planning by pop culutre media, and less to do with the detroit headz. But if you look at the first year (widely regarded as the most successful), you see a pretty good mix of techno, house, electro, disco, jazz, hip hop, experimental- as well as a proper recognition for younger local talent, I feel this is more what the detroit headz were after, but I blame current problems on capitalism, not music fans.

Also, I always wonder what people are talking about when they talk about detroit music. It is such a broad umbrella, and theres not too much tying it all together- the only real link I see is an emotional element to the music that is lacking in say NYC techno or Swedish techno. Here in Chicago, labels like Guidance, Dust Traxx, Afterhours, etc. are pretty similar- In Detroit you have stuff like Planet E, Ersatz Audio, UR, Sound Signature, KDJ, Minus (across the river) - which covers a pretty broad spectrum. If you go on MP3.com and see the kids that call their music detroit techno, you get some pretty funny results. I guess in the classic sense its just KMS, Transmat, and Metroplex- but that really doesnt apply to talk about current detroit music.

Anyways, all this is just to say I think detroit headz are more open-minded than you give credit for...

[CV]

Well , time I threw in my 2 pence...

I began much more checkin out the UK , Chicago and European techno sound before my mate Si Begg , who was DJing way before me, introduced me to Juan Atkins, Derrik May and the early Detroit techno sound... I was also well into The Vision and Mills without actually really thinking about the fact that they were from Detroit - i didn`t have the internet back then, and no-one explained the history to me until Si did, and i didn`t read much music press... anyway it was all pretty mythical, mysterious and fun... Well, since those early days, I believe in UR, as an inspirational musical force and a significant and authentic factor in the survival and development of independent music. I prize my Detroit electronic music collection above some of the others , not because the critics or the magazines say that its cool, but because some of those records have the amorphous magic , dusty roots and maverick attitudes that I crave in techno music. My three favourite Detroit DJs are James Pennington, Terence Dixon and Juan Atkins.

And, just for the record, I have NEVER played in Detroit , although its been reported to us that some promoters over the past ten years have falsely claimed to have brought me over ... I would love to play there someday but I am just waiting to be invited to the right party at the right time.

[Tomoki]

The chance is not getting bigger, because one of the most innovative Detroit clubs, The Motor lounge, closes the doors at the end of this year.

[Peezee]

yes, a shame about Motor..

however, the Paxahau guys (paxahau.com) have started doing a number of events with the new club Panacea that opened in downtown detroit. During DEMF they brought in Perlon guys, Hawtin, and Vladislav Delay. they also have a great Real Audio archive of techno sets on their site from all their events as well as their online radio shows.

there are also some amazing smaller events going on at places like Porter Street station (thursdays) and the Works (mondays) in Detroit.

but regarding bigger and international acts, i'm not sure who will pick up where Motor left of.... ?

[thatgirl]

uhhm. they stopped doing that at panacea last friday.

:)

[nothinghere]

Yes, motor closing may stop the influx of some international artists, but that place sucks. Ive never seen a dj play there and be happy with the setup. Its pretty sad when your voted the #1 club in the US and you dont even have tables or monitors that work properly. In mid August Minus/plus 8 and paxahua are doing a show at one of the mainstream clubs, should be interesting to see how that goes.

And just to clarify, I am/was not saying all of detroit is close-minded.

[Mercedez Ben]

Originally posted by nothinghere
And just to clarify, I am/was not saying all of detroit is close-minded.

but you made sweeping statements like

To me Detroit and the "scene" if you will, is more like fashion. No longer the music but more of the image.

and then used the 2002 DEMF as an example. just because some greedy evil bitch like CM tries to pimp out the music like she pimps out her own twat on a nightly basis doesn't mean the detroit scene has gone sour or is selling out.

[nothinghere]

Ya know in one paragraph on the internet its hard not to make sweeping statements. Of course for every statement there are going to be excepssions, Of course there are open-minded individuals in Detroit, but I find they are few and far between. And this past demf is just as much Carols fault as the artist selection commity. I never said that Detroit was selling out. I see it more of becoming stagnant. Wanting to live in the past.

[Mercedez Ben]

but what about paxahau for example? the pemf events they put on were pretty fuckin futuristic if you ask me. i don't live in detroit but i do live in chicago and while there are some serious problems with the scene here, i think it's critical to specify the exceptions to those problems. otherwise my statements aren't balanced and discussion remains base and doesn't get to the core of what we're talking aboout. semantics is a worthwhile endeavor, even on a basic level. i think too many people shy away from it. and i don't think you have to make generalized statements just because you're on a discussion board. discourse is discourse wherever it is.

[nothinghere]

I said there are open minded individuals in detroit. paxahau is a great resource. They put on quality events and have a great archive. Their label D records is also quality, but is a perfect example of how quality detroit based techno gets overlooked in detroit. I agree negleted to state the exceptions. Exception in detroit imo are paxahua.com, frequencydetroit.com, seismic records, D records, FTM Records, missiondetroit.org, low res, Gary Martins label (name escapes me), detroitluv.com, ghostly international(although they are not detroit based and would not want to be called a detroit label)I have found people invloved with these groups to be the most openminded individuals in the detroit area.

Also, mercedez Yes, semantics is very worth while, but if you want to get down to it every statement mede is a generalized one. And there is no core, only more layers. just givin ya hardtime;]