skills

[jukka]

after a couple of beers and some absynth i had a conversation with two of my mates if a hip hop or a techno dj does have more skills.
it ended up in a one aginst two talk for about two hours.

so whats your opinion about ?

[Hazell]

Assuming we are talking primarily about TECHNICAL skills(rather than selecting skills) - There is no question....

In terms of Techno, the skills we speak of are a direct influence OF HipHop on the style of DJing that was pioneered during the days of Disco... I'd argue that Techno NEVER had it's OWN style of Djing in the first place - It adopted the approach of DJs such as Ron Hardy and some DJ's fused it with the influence of their previous incarnation as HipHop DJ's.

Anyone care to mention someone who CURRENTLY plays Techno a la HipHop that WASN'T 'taught' or inspired by Da Bronx Science?

To all who voted, no comparrision: THERE IS NOTHING BUT COMPARRISON!

[Hazell]

p.s. I wonder how many peepes voted according to their preference for THE MUSIC itself?

[jukka]

in my opinion you can't compare it.......cos you can't scratch all the time during a techno set (it just wouldn't work out good).
i gotta say that a techno dj who comes from mixing hip hop first
have great skills.....mixing sometimes during the set for example.

[Weishaupt]

difficult question, jukka.

i mean, how will you fix it? will you stand behind the dj and make some notices......

imo scatching is the worth shit ever........

[Dibu-Z]

nothings better than scratching! but not in techno


what would be hiphop without scratching...pah Weishaupt...setzen 6! nachsitzen, 2 Stunden

[Weishaupt]

i think, a hipphopp dj and a tekkno dj are two different worlds. and....important..two absolutly different kinds of nrg...

u cant say whats better or not...

[jukka]

ah no, i think scratching during a techno set is cool as long as it isn't too much....

[Weishaupt]

Originally posted by Dibu-Z
nothings better than scratching! but not in techno


what would be hiphop without scratching...pah Weishaupt...setzen 6! nachsitzen, 2 Stunden

im not into hipphopp......

its not in my interests...but in techno scratching are crap......long live my friend westbam...

btw
scratching in hiphop is very boring to me..............!!!!!!

[Dibu-Z]

@weishaupt

thats right...

but i think the hiphop dj need to have mor technical skillz with the record and the needle and his hands...and the techno dj need to have a better feeling for the music and better hearing for the rekkids

[Dibu-Z]

Originally posted by jukka
ah no, i think scratching during a techno set is cool as long as it isn't too much....


yeah sometimes its cool, but not too much as you said...

[Dibu-Z]

Originally posted by Weishaupt

scratching in hiphop is very boring to me..............!!!!!!

you never heared any hiphop!!! :-p

[Weishaupt]

harhar........

im sure, youre are right, du dosenpfand:)!!!

[phonudja]

hmm. surprise surprise. nobody will actually vote for the techno dj, but then is too proud to vote hiphop. bah, this is silly!

how bout programming skills? hiphop or techno.
instead of poll-ution I just ask the question here...

[Dibu-Z]

hehe...

of course i´m right du Säure-Attentats-Opfer

[MissANFO]

It's a really difficult question, the most of my friends who are dj (except my brother of course...) were hiphop dj before techno dj...

[amble]

id say a comparison of them djs is difficult cos of the nature of the job. a techno dj is out there alone mixing records to entertain the crowd, while a hip hop dj is the armada to provide the backing beats for an mc. at least nowadays. two different things.

[emef]

i think a scratchin country`n`western dj beats all the other djs.

[Hazell]

Jeeezus, there's a lot more to being a HipHop DJ than just goin' 'wicka, wicka aaaah'...

Dibu-Z: I think you underestimate the programming abilities/requirements of the HipHop DJ, just because they don't necessairly take the 'journey' approach, they still have to read, maintain and nurture the energy levels of the crowd/dancefloor.

Take a closer look at the techniques that were born within' the early days of HipHop:

*2 copies action - Used in Techno, Innovated within HipHop
*Beat Juggles - Used in Techno, Innovated within HipHop
*Scratching - rarely(but much the same) used in Techno, Innovated within' HipHop.
*Cuttin'/Crossafader techniques - Predominantly innovated within HipHop... Used universally.

Can anyone think of ANY particular skils/technique that came about as a DIRECT result of DJs playing techno?

Amble: I hear ya about the HipHop DJ as backing 'band', which, for me IS the X-Factor that sets the 2 extremes(NOT 'DJ Made-to-fade' :P) apart...

[actionjetzon]

Originally posted by Hazell
Jeeezus, there's a lot more to being a HipHop DJ than just goin' 'wicka, wicka aaaah'...

Dibu-Z: I think you underestimate the programming abilities/requirements of the HipHop DJ, just because they don't necessairly take the 'journey' approach, they still have to read, maintain and nurture the energy levels of the crowd/dancefloor.

Take a closer look at the techniques that were born within' the early days of HipHop:

*2 copies action - Used in Techno, Innovated within HipHop
*Beat Juggles - Used in Techno, Innovated within HipHop
*Scratching - rarely(but much the same) used in Techno, Innovated within' HipHop.
*Cuttin'/Crossafader techniques - Predominantly innovated within HipHop... Used universally.
Can anyone think of ANY particular skils/technique that came about as a DIRECT result of DJs playing techno?



I´m absolutely with you Hazell, maybee you got me wrong...
Maybe im expressed wrongly what i think...i never underestimate hip hop dj´s!
Just was on a really impressive show last saturday with Andy Smith (Portishead) and another guy with 4 tables...from hiphop over funk to oldies!
Never saw/heared such a good set!

[FiST]

check dis rubbish (http://www.thesoundsurgery.co.uk/cinema/cinema1/pointlesslive.html#)
clik ignorant/Fi$T link at bottom left corner to see flash simulation of needle teknique.

came from wanting to fuk with tecno rekids but can be used for any form of musick.

file size is 500kb if you have slow conection may take a while to load.
done sum other things but don't examples at werk;)

[wheezer]

hazell has laid it out nicely, really.

imho as far as deejaying goes there's two prevalent schools of thought, one being the hiphop and the other basically disco.

this doesn't mean that you can only do one or the other, most djs tend to blend in stuff from both nowadays.

I'm not so sure wether the origin of some technique has much relevance though, let's bear in mind that hiphop itself was pretty much just a blend of earlier styles and thusly probably just as much influenced by that - plus it was simply arround that much longer than techno.

the fact of the matter remains, however, that you've got the most innovation, in terms of deejaying technique that is, in the hip hop or rather turntablism sector.

I really prefer the term turntablism because to me it doesn't tie the musical content as closely to the standard hiphop beats&styles.

[Hazell]

To me 'Turntablism' is very 'TECHNO'...

Just listen to an interview with Q-bert or MixMasterMike - It's like listening to an interveiw with May or Atkins circa '89...

If only techno producers could push their machines as far as these guys push their 1210s!

Jukka: Thanks for this topic, my man... Very rare you can talk Djing without whatever the ACTUAL topic is getting warped into a 'skills or tunes' debate! :D

Q. Do any of you think there is much room for an experimental approach to DJing on the dancefloor these days or do you think that the current noticable void for such is a punter/partygoer infuenced development?

I've ask the question before... Where have all the techno deck-wreckers gone????

(Remember, I'm far from refering to a few scratches here and there during what is otherwise a 'standardly' constructed Techno set...)

Please feel free to add to my rather pitiful list:

DJ Bone
Claude Young
Shake
errr.... The Outlet Collective

[FiST]

hazell did you check me link?
deck wreckin/record fuking turntable shit? or just stoopid?

will post pics of other devices when i get home for ya to be seeing.

[FiST]

janek schaffer and his tri tone arm turntable is well worth checkin aswell

[wheezer]

Full ack on turntablism being very techno here, to me a lot of the stuff that comes out of this field sounds very Aphex Twinish - or rather, Men 1 sounds a lot like it was some turntablist mashing up acid house greats.

when I saw Dave Clarke in Munich a couple of years ago, he was certainly laying down a deck-wrecking show. The Jerome Hill sets I've heard were pretty mental.

I'd really like to see/hear Afrika Islam sometime (pipe down, German purists and let me finish), he's supposed to combine fairly ill turntablism with a selection that spans the latest trance hits - gotta be fun!

Anyhow, there's always room on the dancefloor since most of the time it's empty...

[phonudja]

does anyone remember that >sounds of rome< posse, max durante, lory d, etc. they just can't keep their hands still. blew me away anytime...
apparently, they come from hiphop, tho...

[wheezer]

well so does every dj listed here so far...

[Hazell]

Re: the poll - I find it very interesting that we have a silent majority...

[wheezer]

more djs:

godfather, ectomorph, slugo, assault

[Hazell]

Haven't seen him for years now, but is Rolando still prone to a little 2 copy tomfoolery?

[invisibledan]

only saw him do a short set, but Rupture totally blew me away
what he did seemed so simple, but was just awesome

[marcel]

Originally posted by Hazell
*2 copies action - Used in Techno, Innovated within HipHop

this has been done already in the discodays before hiphop. agree with you on the other points though

but really people what fucking sense does this discussion have?? i mean, really, thats worth it?

[Mr. Trickster]

Haze

You asked out of the techno fraternity who wasn' t inspired by THE SCIENCE OF THE BOOGIE DOWN well I know two big name "jox" who weren' t:
SURGEON
RUSKIN

Inspired by Jeff but not by the Bronx.

Mr. Trickster.

[Mirsha]

Originally posted by Dibu-Z
nothings better than scratching! but not in techno

Don't diss it until you've heard Jerome Hill. You can nab a two hour set from the man from the url below that he played live in Edinburgh last month.

http://www.clubdogma.com/mediatunes.htm

[DsD]

i think u can`t compare techno djing and hip hop djing cause the people don`t want to hear the same stuff or mixing skills.

[big raff]

after watching the film last week called 'scratch', i can honestly say i was blown away by what these guys were doing (mixmaster mike/q-bert/rob swift/babu). they love what they do and constantly morph their sounds and techniques to be unique and forward thinking. to see what mixmaster mike did with that old blues record to turn it into an off the cuff hiphop masterpiece was mind blowing. i think techno dj's need to take a leaf out of the 'turntablists' book and go out - be different - be strange - because that is the key to creativity and most of all, just fucking great fun
ps - big up the techno dj's who hold this belief!

[pille'ocheoni]

its a tuff one. but ill say a good hip-hop dj can do both, but a good techno dj cant do both. key word "good"

[DsD]

pille the problem that both sides have is that they have to choose the right vinyl...

[pille'ocheoni]

your right dsd
. its a tuff issue to say which is better than the other. 2 differnt styles of mixing, and cutting. whether your a knob twister or a platter twister, i think now i will take back my comment above. you cant compare.

[DsD]

that`s what i mean ;)

[jukka]

Originally posted by Hazell
Haven't seen him for years now, but is Rolando still prone to a little 2 copy tomfoolery?

he is still doin' it.......and i gotta say doin' it nice.
but he plays out a bit housier in the past.

[jukka]

ben sims is an amazing dj, too.

[Hazell]

Originally posted by Mr. Trickster
Haze

You asked out of the techno fraternity who wasn' t inspired by THE SCIENCE OF THE BOOGIE DOWN well I know two big name "jox" who weren' t:
SURGEON
RUSKIN

Inspired by Jeff but not by the Bronx.

Mr. Trickster.

Ya missed my point Mr Trixta...

Which was: "Anyone care to mention someone who CURRENTLY plays Techno a la HipHop that WASN'T 'taught' or inspired by Da Bronx Science? [/b]

James maybe(although not really anymore), but Surgeon?

Originally posted by DSDi think u can`t compare techno djing and hip hop djing cause the people don`t want to hear the same stuff or mixing skills. I think this very thread in many cases proves otherwise!

I really haven't read any argument as to WHY they can't be compared especially as one(Techno) has been so influenced by the other(HipHop)...

I think a their is far to much preconception here of the HipHop DJ being an exhibitionist as opposed to a 'crowd-rocka'.

I think for the best part of this discussion that actual music that is played is irrelevant, I mean can you not cut up house, Funk or Drum n Bass rekkids?

pille'ocheoni -

"its a tuff one. but ill say a good hip-hop dj can do both, but a good techno dj cant do both. key word "good" "...

"i think now i will take back my comment above. you cant compare.

I thought that was pretty spot on.... I

MO it's like any other 'instrument' - YOu strive to expand your repetoir... These days very few Techno DJs look beyond a bit of tidy beat mixing whereas HipHop DJs have been continually pushing forwards for nearly 30 years.

I think that speaks for itself...

[Goonie]

“I began my career at a very young age, 18, 18 years old. I was asked to do a radio show in Detroit under a station named WGRQ, under the name of ‘The Wizard.’ I was a hip-hop deejay. But hip-hop had taken a turn. It went from hip-hop to rap. The element of West Coast rap became very violent and I just wasn’t interested. I was more into hip-hop as the art form – break dancing and graffiti art and things like that. Techno somehow caught my ear because it was so much more powerful,” Mills said.

[jip strak]

Originally posted by emef
i think a scratchin country`n`western dj beats all the other djs.

even accoustic gabba?

[Hazell]

Originally posted by marcelRE: 2 Copy Mixing & Cutting
this has been done already in the discodays before hiphop.


Hip Hop, stemming from the Jamaican soundsystem culture in NYC in the early 70s(See Kool Herc), is ARGUABLLY older than Disco(In it's commonly recognised form at least) though.... People forget that HipHop(predoninantly born of the turntables) existed for nearly ten years before Flash, Kurtis Blow, Sugarhill etc. started to release records.

So I'd argue that this innovation did indeed come from the Bronx.

[emef]

are you a professor of turntablism, hazell?
a thousand facts for a thousand situations ;)

[emef]

Originally posted by jip strak


even accoustic gabba?

"hardcore skiffle" i prefer to call it :)

[jip strak]

Originally posted by emef


"hardcore skiffle" i prefer to call it :)

scratches head
is that a synonym for intelligent disco?

[emef]

wheres me washboard?

[Hazell]

Originally posted by big raff
after watching the film last week called 'scratch', i can honestly say i was blown away by what these guys were doing (mixmaster mike/q-bert/rob swift/babu). they love what they do and constantly morph their sounds and techniques to be unique and forward thinking. to see what mixmaster mike did with that old blues record to turn it into an off the cuff hiphop masterpiece was mind blowing. i think techno dj's need to take a leaf out of the 'turntablists' book and go out - be different - be strange - because that is the key to creativity and most of all, just fucking great fun
ps - big up the techno dj's who hold this belief!

Word!

That is the film I had in mind upon making the comparison between MMM & Derrick May interveiws...

I saw 'Scratch' straight after a C4 documentary called 'Mothership Connction'(Ft. Interviews with Atkins/Fowlkes/May/George Clinton/Baambaata amongst others) and couldn't help thinking "Hey they have the same inspiration/Direction to their musical vision"....

[Hazell]

Originally posted by emef
are you a professor of turntablism, hazell?
a thousand facts for a thousand situations ;)

"RunDMC once said a DJ could be a band - Stand on it's own feet,
get you out your seat"(*)... Been hooked ever since! ;)


(*Chuck D 1987)

[Hazell]

Originally posted by actionjetzon
Andy Smith (Portishead) and another guy with 4 tables...from hiphop over funk to oldies!
Never saw/heared such a good set!

http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=CD&title=131862

Part one was THE bomb, this one looks even better!

[nothinghere]

who cares as long as you rock and leave the audiance damaged.

but my vote goes to Baseck (combining all styles of DJing)

[Patrick]

Originally posted by Hazell


http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=CD&title=131862

Part one was THE bomb, this one looks even better!

Fuck yeah ! Didn't even know there was going to be a part II. A defitinte purchase. Love that first one, especially that mix where he drops Tom Jones into T Plays it Cool. Awesome.

[Hazell]

Originally posted by nothinghere
who cares as long as you rock and leave the audiance damaged.

but my vote goes to Baseck (combining all styles of DJing)

Who that then? Can't say i've heard of 'em...

Anything downloadable?

(Man, it feels good to FINALLY be able to say that knowing in a few days I will have a FULLY functioning computer at home - Free musik: I'm on yo ass!:) )

[tsr_tomas]

the only guy who knows how to handle Techno and Hiphop behinde the decks is The Egyptian Lover !

[Hazell]

:D

[Marolo]

to quote the egyptian lover: "What Is A DJ If He Can't Scratch?"

[tsr_tomas]

egyptian lover: what is a MC if he can´t rap ?

hehe.

[nothinghere]

Baseck video available Here (http://www.feedthemachine.org/gangsterbassinc.mov)

[nothinghere]

i also have a few of his tour mixes if interested pm me

[phaedrus]

I voted for the hiphop dj, because if the issue is "how much control do you have over your deck" then the hip hop dj certainly has more.

However, when it comes to track selection, then the techno dj beats the hiphop dj easily, imho. I've rarely heard an interesting hip hop set played at a club. I've seen quite a few big names, but most of the time they just played a bunch of party tracks. Hardly any flow, no experiments (even though there's plenty of experimental hip hop).

Interestingly, the turntablism movement seems to focus solely on originality and experiments, but leaves a wide gap with the dancefloor. This is not very surprising as some dj's practice months on a single routine, which doesn't leave much room for interaction with the crowd.

[V Knid esq]

I like DJs that can't mix at all.

[jukka]

then you should listen to a set by aleks&me aka toiletboy&wolfsauge.......drunk'n'danger ous..our style is that we have no style at all.
lol

[tsr_tomas]

drunk n dangerous... sound to good to be true. i got to hear that, live !

hehe.

[marcel]

djs are overrated

[wheezer]

I just saw the dmc team dj championships 2000 yesterday, and another thing that I've come to really enjoy about the whole turntablist scene is that they make fun of each other in the classic battle context that is the dmc.

uk-based mixologists, a-trak & dj craze and what remained of the allies - they all did their own parody of the scratch perverts winning plane crash engine-sound routine of the year before (coincidentally that part itself was "dissing" the allies) - the scratch perverts in turn imitated craze's winning routine for the dmc 2000 singles (you know, the part where does that slow-motion move).

how often do you see something comparable in the techno scene?

[phaedrus]

never

[V Knid esq]

I know it's been mentioned, but I'm listening to DJ rupture's Gold Teeth Thief... it's not a techno mix, nor a hip hop scratcha-whatsit cutup. What is it?

[RKB]

Originally posted by wheezer


how often do you see something comparable in the techno scene?


Never, indeed, but then again, Techno doesn't have the same "exhibitionist" ethos as hip hop. I agree on the whole that the "skills" had to come from somewhere, but I am not particularly keen to give all the credit to hip-hoppers! The reason why Mills is such a legend is because he applied far out technical ability to a totally different style of music. Imagine this:
1xhip-hop DJ
1xtechno DJ

The techno DJ plays the hip-hop DJ's records in a hip hop scratching and chopping style, and the hip-hop DJ plays the techno records in a 3 decks long layered and pristinely beatmatched style. Who would fare better?

My €€€€€'s is on the Techno DJ!!!

[wheezer]

I dunno RKB, a straight techno beat isn't exactly hard to fool around with, just saw an amazing performance with fairly standard 4/4 beats by kentaro yesterday evening, and there's plenty, plenty more performances out there like that...

[Hazell]

Originally posted by RKB

Imagine this:
1xhip-hop DJ
1xtechno DJ

The techno DJ plays the hip-hop DJ's records in a hip hop scratching and chopping style, and the hip-hop DJ plays the techno records in a 3 decks long layered and pristinely beatmatched style. Who would fare better?

My €€€€€'s is on the Techno DJ!!!

PROVIDING... The techno jock CAN scratch/cut/etc. ,that is(which, these days, you'd be forgiven for thinking most CAN'T)... I bet that however un-adept a 3-decker the HipHop DJ may be, they'll STILL be able to mix...

History & progression of the artform aside, this is kind the basis of my argument... HipHop requires the art of mixing as fundamental, whilst with techno, the mixing is the art itself.

[phaedrus]

Define mixing. Most hip hop jocks I've heard rarely match their beats for more than a few measures, let a side adjust their equalizers. That's not really mixing, that's glueing your records together.

[emef]

fuck djs... the producers should be putting these turntablism tricks in their tracks.

[Hazell]

Originally posted by emef
fuck djs... the producers should be putting these turntablism tricks in their tracks.

Nah, fuck that... The producers should be incorporating these turntablists into their live sets! ;)