the term 'analogue'

[baba]

This is a request to help me with an essay I am writing. It is to do with language, dreams and feminism and stuff but is also to with computers and machines - which I figured you techies would be able to help me understand.

How do analogue machines work? i know it is more to do with a 'correspondence' or corresponding factors whereas digital is 'one or the other' (on/off). can anyone explain simply and give me an idiot's example of an analogue machine?

[emef]

i cant believe its been an hour and a half since this post was made
shame on you,still no analogue explanation is forthcoming
usually all i hear is analogue this analogue that, blah blah blah blah
speak up all you officianados and explain what and how.

my explanation of analogue would go something like this
its rubbish,people who favour white labcoats and wear pocket protectors love it because they think it makes them seem cool
it doesnt...go back to your minimoogs and flasks of weak lemon drink

i love digital...diditaldigitaldigita l la la la lalalalala gibber lol

[piscaries]

i'm really not an expert at all, but here's my understanding of it: digital uses microprocessors and the components are actually doing calculations, whereas the the analog stuff is doing if/then functions with minimal mathematical stuff going on. as far as synths and that go, all analog stuff (all natural sound in general actually) is based on sine waves and analog synths have oscillator circuits who's sole job is to create a sine wave wich is then shaped or modulated by other circuits that each have a specific job (ie: envelope, filter, lfo, pwm, etc.). now in the digital world, all these analog circuits are are pretty much replaced by microprocessors, and instead of a sine-wave based sound source, the sound is digitally reproduced and manipulated though math funtions. i could be completely talking out of my ass though (which is very likely). sorry i can't help you more.

[marcel]

Originally posted by emef

my explanation of analogue would go something like this
its rubbish,people who favour white labcoats and wear pocket protectors love it because they think it makes them seem cool
it doesnt...go back to your minimoogs and flasks of weak lemon drink

hahaha. cooorect!lol

this analog/tb303/whatever-is-better-than-this-and-that-blablabla thing is the same with e-guitars in the rock scene. just a stupid fetish not more not less

[baba]

so lets see if I understand any of this. the 'other circuits' shape the sine wave created by the oscillator circuit? does this mean (in a theoretical sense) that the single sine wave is the product/result/effect of information from the various circuits? (from the many (circuits) into one (sine wave) as opposed to digital which is a like a switch from one to other - either/or? Or am I barking right up the wrong tree?

[grobelaar]

The dull explanation that makes sense...

A description of a continuously variable signal or a circuit or device designed to handle such signals. The opposite is "discrete" or "digital". Analogue circuits are much harder to design and analyse than digital ones because the designer must take into account effects such as the gain, linearity and power handling of components, the resistance, capacitance and inductance of PCB tracks, wires and connectors, interference between signals, power supply stability and more. A digital circuit design, especially for high switching speeds, must also take these factors into account if it is to work reliably, but they are usually less critical because most digital components will function correctly within a range of parameters whereas such variations will corrupt the outputs of an analogue circuit.


...and my I've just had a spliff explanation...

analogue is natural, and digital is our attempts to measure it...

[piscaries]

Originally posted by grobelaar
analogue is natural, and digital is our attempts to measure it...

perfect

[baba]

ah ha, i think I'm closer to understanding. my partner just tried unsuccessfuly, to explain it to me in the bath but your description is much clearer grobelar. i love 'analogue is natural, and digital is our attemt to measure it' - I'll quote that in my essay and your description gives me loads of inspiration for analogies. cool

[grobelaar]

Glad I could be of help - I'll pop round for my bath next week... :-)

That's a pretty diverse selection of topics for an essay, what are you studying - is it philosophy?

[tsr_tomas]

i like my little c64.. it create´s lots of cool analog sounds we i make music with it... blip bliihp blip bip bp booouh blp piip boilp. hihihi.

[baba]

@ groberlaar:
I'm trying to contextualise a current project called The Dream Machine . It's a mass collaboration/cross discipline 'art' project that is a sort of automatic writing machine that combines computer science and psychoanalytic principles. Although it runs in a practical sense on fundamentally 'digital' codes I was wondering if its effect (the text is produces) can be read in an 'analogue' sort of way.
I know its a bit wierd thinking about reading and writing and dreaming as either 'digital' or 'analog' ( guess the opposition of digital and analogue is a digital/binary process in itself) - I'm looking for different terms i guess in order to describe 'sexual differences' in the machine as processes, ways of thinking about language.
I have a feeling its going to become a huge theoretical monster but I'm making some good headway. i feel i really need to know what i'm talking about so your help is brilliant and invaluable. Are you up for more questions on the way?

[baba]

oh yes -could anyone draw me a diagram that illustrates the differences between digital and analogue. I want to visualise it.

[bitch one]

also an obvious point - the advent of digital machines allowed the universal machine (ie the digital computer ) to come about - a machine that can be programmed in otherwords. whereas analogue machines can only do one thing.

[bitch one]

diagram - digital is a bar chart. whereas analogue is a nice smooth parabola.

[bitch one]

ie digital information comes in discrete chunks called bits. analogue things are smooth and continuous with no gaps.

[CHIP TRONIC]

as soon as you hear something it is analogue.
MODEM --- MODULATOR DEMODULATOR is analog.
it modulates a digital information on a wave and transfers it thhrough the cables. then the wave is demodulated.

is our mind digital or analogue?

[bitch one]

it is analogue, unless you are some kind of android mate

[baba]

ok - i've written a paragraph. Does this make sense and is it correct?


An analogue machine, particularly in the genre of electronic ‘sound’ machines, is ‘a device designed to handle continuously variable signals or circuits’. One of the differences between a digital (discrete) machine and an analogue machine is that with an analogue machine the sound wave is continuous and dynamic (moving like a continuous stream), whereas a digital machine defines the wave as a series of static points or individual co-ordinates. The analogue wave serves as an interesting analogy in terms of this essay because it is an entity that can be heavily influenced and distorted by ‘bodies’ outside of itself ('grain, linearity, interference from other waves'). In effect these elements or variable conditions make formative impressions upon the wave and could be construed as potential contributors or latent 'symptoms' of the ‘sound’ itself. This suggests an element of fluidity, an amorphous shape-shifting openness.
Another aspect that is interesting here is that with binary (or digital) structures there is no ‘in-between’ within the unit– the unit is defined by being either on or off (1 or 0) – it cannot be both or neither, whereas an analogue unit is comparable to a gradient – it peaks and troughs seamlessly – it is joined rather than separated

[CHIP TRONIC]

wow!

[baba]

is that 'wow' a good one or a bad one?

[grunder]

normal legs are analogue ...................
robotic legs are digital ..........

[CHIP TRONIC]

well, i am really impressed because you summed up all relevant facts in a professional sounding way.

is the c64 really analogue???? i don´t think so.

[baba]

oh yea - another obscure thing - would it be true to say that an analogue wave/unit/thing is non-hierarchal. for instance in a digital unit there is a hierarchy - positive and negative (on or off).

[baba]

ah thanks Chip Tronic - thats boosted my confidence a lot. I feel very unsure when trying to write about things like this - its great to have such a useful friendly source of brains at my fingertips. My God, the internet is great. Writing used to be such a lonely affair

[decadnids]

Originally posted by CHIP TRONIC
well, i am really impressed because you summed up all relevant facts in a professional sounding way.
is the c64 really analogue???? i don´t think so.

no the c64 is digital.

[decadnids]

Originally posted by baba
oh yea - another obscure thing - would it be true to say that an analogue wave/unit/thing is non-hierarchal. for instance in a digital unit there is a hierarchy - positive and negative (on or off).

I dunno about that, depends on how deep you go into the system.
is +ve / -ve a hierarchy?

[baba]

oh gawd - I don't know er yea its got a + and a _ which implies opposite terms. what's ve stand for?

[bitch one]

Originally posted by baba
oh yea - another obscure thing - would it be true to say that an analogue wave/unit/thing is non-hierarchal. for instance in a digital unit there is a hierarchy - positive and negative (on or off).

i'm not sure it's right to call this a hierarchy. explain what other things you would call hierarchal.

[decadnids]

+ve and -ve , just terms used for positive and negative.
as digital, uses binary as its number system, the states that can occur , as you say are on off, true false, +ve -ve etc. to be thus doesn't adhere to a hierachy, as a hierarchy implies that you have some sort of system with an order, such as a political hierarchy, where there is a leader, and then people below etc.

+ve and -ve are both equal in importance.

[baba]

yea - maybe hierarchy is the wrong word. What i mean is that when you have two opposite things , one usually has more cultural or symbolic value than the other (in terms of maths this is literal and quantative). the negative usually stands for 'not positive or not present' rather than as a thing in its own right. It goes both ways though- day would not be day if there was no night. The bit i'm interested in is the dawn or the dusk - where it is both. Its this bit in the middle that I'm trying to discuss in terms of 'analogue' .Trying to think outside/between of the binary. Does this make sense?

[decadnids]

Yes it makes sense,
within logic, +ve and +ve have equal standing, much like the ying yang etc etc. its like the cosmic ballance, and like mentioned before digital technology is trying to model a system that has infinite variation (or as close to infinate as possible). analogue, "real world stuff" has fluctuations that can not be calculated, an analogue system can never truely be predicted. even a computer random number is not a true random number, it is only pseudo-random.

we been going on about the sine wave, for an analogue sine wave it is a continous curve that is smooth, no matter how much you would zoom into it.

for a digital sine wave it depends on the sample rate, and the amount of digital data that is used to store the information that is being generated. digital works in descrete units.

[bitch one]

ummm. muddlin me, syntax error perhaps. 'trying to think outside the binary' - statement refers to digital systems. so you want to think about digital things in an analog way? not makin sense.

what is it you want analogue machines to be analagous to?

[phil]

get a fackin book then ya coint

[emef]

like i said, labcoats and pocketprotectorslol

[bitch one]

but i like pretending to be clever

[baba]

so it would fit if I were to describe an anologue wave as an 'unpredictable ghost in the binary machine'. Given that even analogue machines are electronic and therefore work according to binary rules????? like a dream or a slip of the tongue maybe?

[emef]

er yeah thats right , go with that ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????

[decadnids]

Originally posted by emef
like i said, labcoats and pocketprotectorslol

nothing wrong with that mate.

[emef]

Originally posted by decadnids


nothing wrong with that mate.

sorry did i knock over your bunsen burner

[bitch one]

Originally posted by baba
so it would fit if I were to describe an anologue wave as an 'unpredictable ghost in the binary machine'. Given that even analogue machines are electronic and therefore work according to binary rules????? like a dream or a slip of the tongue maybe?

i think this is kind of abusing the terms actually.

[decadnids]

Originally posted by emef


sorry did i knock over your bunsen burner

no, but my pen protector, got a little jaded.

[baba]

Oh dear - I'm falling behind on the threads.

I know i'm mixing my metaphors (digital/analogue etc) but I think that's the point of what I'm writing about. i'm writing about a virtual 'dream machine' as a machine that disrupts normal sense or at least our normal way of thinking about sense in reading - especially when what we are reading comes from an anonymous mass of different sources. What is more, the writing itself comes from dreams so it has even less traditional logic in a concious sense making way. but I'm also interested in the way we 'make or produce sense', how we interpret/ experience certain types of writing and whether i could use the term analogue to describe a stream of consciousness (unconscious thoughts when dreaming)

I guess this thread has a lot in common with the stories thread (music/stories etc).

[decadnids]

Originally posted by baba
so it would fit if I were to describe an anologue wave as an 'unpredictable ghost in the binary machine'. Given that even analogue machines are electronic and therefore work according to binary rules????? like a dream or a slip of the tongue maybe?

no I would have to disagree, the thing with circuits, is that even tho they might use logic gates for something or other, it doesn't make it a digital machine. the nature is on what form the information is and how it is acted upon.

a circuit that has a switch a battery and a light bulb, has binary ligic in it - on or off, but it is still an analogue circuit, as the information is light, which is analogue. if that makes sense,

sorry am a little dazed as am in the middle of doing some ASP programming.

[bitch one]

Originally posted by baba
analogue to describe a stream of consciousness (unconscious thoughts when dreaming)



well it's certainly not digital!

[baba]

aha - ok - I think i may be using the term digital too loosely. I think of digital as refering to anything on/off etc. i guess i have to be clearer when describing parts ( distinguish between what the machine is in a concrete sense (switches etc) and information. Would the human heart be a good example of the switchy part (valves) and the blood would be the analogue? this is really
complicated now, i thought I was getting it earlier.

this is a basic illustration of the dream machine which might (not) make my intentions clearer.


http://www.nuisance.org.uk/dreamMachine/html/telegram.htm

[emef]

Originally posted by decadnids


no, but my pen protector, got a little jaded.

haha, do ya wanna borrow mine...its still shiny`n`new :)

[phil]

Is that what you and matt did?

What, does it take text from a .txt file and randomly chuck it together?
i would say that i think the dream generator leans a bit on the surreal and less on the real. most of my dreams are like filled thoughts. not like a carrot monster or poo on a flakey burger daneielle

[baba]

yea - I know - this is only the first stage though and was my first attempt at actionscript so it is basic. matt and I are going to work on the actual proper thing over the summer - with sounds and images too . i think what I'm trying to do is marry the analogical (continuous reading, temporal, fluid) with the digital (code, puter) .
oh god, maybe I unconciously want to marry and have a baby with my nerdy boyfriend and this is what it is all about. urgh

[bitch one]

Originally posted by baba
aha - ok - I think i may be using the term digital too loosely. I think of digital as refering to anything on/off etc. i guess i have to be clearer when describing parts ( distinguish between what the machine is in a concrete sense (switches etc) and information. Would the human heart be a good example of the switchy part (valves) and the blood would be the analogue?
http://www.nuisance.org.uk/dreamMachine/html/telegram.htm

yes i think you are mixing together two different meanings of the terms, one referring to information, and the other referring to mechanisms. the heart example illustrates this. it dosn't make sense to say 'is the blood the analogue'. analogue is an adjective we have been mostly using here to describe an electronic method of representing or transmitting information.

[baba]

to clarify - the mechanism is the heart, the blood is the method, yea?

[filthydave]

digital uses logic to solve mathematical problems using binary sums - this might help (http://www.iguanalabs.com/truthtab.htm)

analogue can do these sums but would need to be built out of switches and the resultant size enormous
remember the first computer? it was analogue!
real signals through real components doing binary sums
everything was built out of valves and relays(switches for allowing a small voltage to turn on a larger one)
as technology progressed these valves and relays turned into transistors which can be used like relays as an on/off switch or like valves in your hifi to amplify
the result being a slightly smaller circuit board
when the silicon chip was invented shit loads of these transistors were put into a very small space and complex problems could be solved by the calculator in your hand rather than having to go to the warehouse next door

from an audio point its about creating sound and the building blocks are the oscillating circuits that create an alternating current (AC - the same as mains electricity which swings between positive and negative values as opposed to DC, direct current, from a battery whch is either positive or negative)

the most basic oscillator provides a sine wave (the same as mains electric)

a sine wave is a pure tone

if you imagine three lines on the Y axis, zero in the center, the maximum postive level at the top and the lowest negative point at the bottom
the X axis is time
the sine wave starts at zero and follows a natural parabollic curve up to the positive and down through zero to the negative and back up to finish at zero

that is one cycle, one cycle is 1Hz and the closer the start and finish points are together in time the higher the frequency

the bigger the swing between positive and negative the louder it is

a sine wave is the most dull and boring sound you can hear it has none of the harmonics or distortion that create character

other basic waves that are produced by oscillating circuits are saw tooth, square and triangular

these are much rawer in sound they have an edge to them you can hear

in your basic distortion pedal for guitars the signal is amplified so much the peak would naturally go past the maximum positive and negative levels the circuit can provide and so it is clipped at these points
this gives a flat top to the wave and it's this flat top you hear as distortion

sharp points and flat tops are what the other waves use to create a bit of character to the sound

most synths have two or three oscillating circuits that can be mixed together in various combinations to make the sound less of a pure parabollic curve and therefore more interesting

this is then put through the effects - filters, distortion, phase, chorus etc adding more edges, flat tops and harmonics and removing parts of the signal in the case of the filters

in analogue circuits this is all done using real signals if you could connect a speaker to any point in the circuit you'd be able to hear the sound being created at that point there and then

in digital you have to wait for your digital to analogue convertor to do its maths and process the 1s and zeros of binary into audio for you to hear

all this can be done using logic because everything in the analogue world has a value, this value can be turned into binary and calculations based on it performed
basically digital is a mathematical system of recreating the signals of analogue circuits
but because its broken up into bits it doesn't retain the natural flowing qualities of its analogue counterpart

because analogue uses real signals going through real components, each one adds its own form of noise, harmonics and distortion to the signal
this adds character to the sound and it's why the arguement that analogue sounds warmer started

the famous valve sound is nothing more than a distorted signal but because its a real signal being distorted in real time by wires that expand and contract with heat and colour it naturally as they do it's considered warm and deep

guess it depends on how you view the world as to which is better, black and white or varying shades of grey

[filthydave]

Originally posted by baba
aha - ok - I think i may be using the term digital too loosely. I think of digital as refering to anything on/off etc. i guess i have to be clearer when describing parts ( distinguish between what the machine is in a concrete sense (switches etc) and information. Would the human heart be a good example of the switchy part (valves) and the blood would be the analogue? this is really
complicated now, i thought I was getting it earlier


the heart would be the cpu, the valves the transistors inside it and the blood the information containing the binary code of red and white blood cells

[baba]

this is great - cheers. i know I'm distorting it through arty/theory/linguistic eyes but it all fits now into a much bigger picture. i never thought I would find this stuff interesting but I do when I see it in a different context.

[decadnids]

Originally posted by emef


haha, do ya wanna borrow mine...its still shiny`n`new :)

yours only holds felt tip pens - I've advanced on from those mate, so no worries.

[tsr_tomas]

i like to work analog when i draw and make art...

[decadnids]

Originally posted by baba
this is great - cheers. i know I'm distorting it through arty/theory/linguistic eyes but it all fits now into a much bigger picture. i never thought I would find this stuff interesting but I do when I see it in a different context.

your project sounds pretty interesting,
I take from what you write that you might be into dada and surrealism,

like the story thread, cristian mentioned searching for key words on the threads and coming up with some form of story - good idea, and the data is already there.

I used to do a lot of cut and paste experiments with writing, like burroughs et al.


am I right in thinking that you are trying to create some sort of generative system that follows along the lines of automatic writing?

[CHIP TRONIC]

[hmm]

[CHIP TRONIC]

Originally posted by baba
an 'unpredictable ghost in the binary machine'.

haha. that sounds good. i´ll take that for a track name. THE BINARY MACHINE IS OBSESSED by its human user who controls it. Cool. i am a demon. CHAOOOOS!

[bitch one]

Originally posted by filthydave

remember the first computer? it was analogue!

no this is wrong. this is the confusion i was talking about. the first universal machine (aka computer) may have used steam engines, water clocks, ants, whatever, but it was by definition DIGITAL. this is the whole point of digital - the actual mechanism is unimportant, it is the representation of data as bits which is important - and this is independent of the mehanism used to represent them. the same algorithms will work equally well on a giant steam engine computer or a super high speed pentium 4.

whether they are representations of sound waves as in a synthesizer, or light passing through a lens onto a photographic plate,analogue systems, on the other hand, ARE the mechanism. the data you are interested in are directly proportional, in some way, to the actual physical state of the components.

eg a turntable directly converts the movements of the needle into a voltage which vibrates a loudspeaker. to turn this data into a digital form, you have to split the real, contiguous analogue (analogue because they are truly analogous to the thing which is recorded) bumps in the groove into a series of bits, by effectively taking snapshots of the needle's position a certain number of times per second.

[baba]

i guess it is an automatic writing machine - but one that I hope will prove to have many dimensions. It's a bit difficult to predict what it will look like/sound like when its constructed in the summer. Its gonna work in real time so that dream submissions flow straight into the data-base and there is gonna be lots and lots of noise. Because it is based heavily on psychoanalytic theory (which may or may not be in conflict with the programming -the two rarely come together) I've gotta do lots of thinking and reading as yet to work out the rules (hopefully the reading part/the humans of the machine will break them). I quite like my little telegram machine though - probably cos I programmed it by myself -which was a difficult thing for me to do but I also like reading it. It just sits there generating new scenes.
The essay/chapter im working on now is called 'the girl in the machine' - is that me d'ya reckon?

[decadnids]

Originally posted by baba

The essay/chapter im working on now is called 'the girl in the machine' - is that me d'ya reckon?

sounds like it could be.

but interesting project, I reckon.
def interested in the out-come.

I been meaning to do some more generative stuff, most of the stuff I do is pretty minimal such as http://www.20three.com/23gen/01.html

http://www.20three.com/23gen/02.html

http://www.20three.com/23gen/03.html
http://www.20three.com/23gen/04.html

[baba]

Originally posted by bitch one

analogue systems, on the other hand, ARE the mechanism. the data you are interested in are directly proportional, in some way, to the actual physical state of the components.



so the analogue machine is so much more physical - doesn't need to translate from data into sound because the sound is already there as part of its 'body', whereas digital data has to be interpreted cos it is just data otherwise. Is this why on a digital computer you can draw a picture and stick it through some sound software and it will read interpret it into sounds. My friend did this with a knitting pattern once - she played a double knit cardy. or am i clutching at straws?

[decadnids]

yeah thats right baba,
its all just digital data, 0 and 1, and how those 0 and 1 are interpreted depends on the out come. As you say, images become sounds, and vice versa. you are just using raw data and then doing with that what ever you want to do.

[grobelaar]

What about data compression? I’m quite intrigued by data compression – particularly lossy systems where they compare things to see if they are similar, if they are then is simply makes them the exactly the same and doesn’t bother storing the difference.

It’s interesting if you think about your memories get coloured or tinted and changed slightly. You know like remembering an old tv show which you really liked – then when you are confronted with an episode you realise that your memories have become rose-tinted. Your memory of the show is far better than it actually is, or perhaps the memories have become intermingled and you realise that you’ve combined two or three elements into the one memory.

Perhaps you could run some compression on your dream machine project – could be interesting…

I have this wacky theory that data compression, combined with server-side traffic management AI routines, and compressed server logs on a big enough network could in itself be enough to lead to a self awareness in a system. I was wondering also how this network would communicate its awareness to other entities, whether it would even be aware of us and try and communicate with us.

Any way I decided that if it did want to communicate with us then it might create its own personalities in Internet forums a bit like this – which would be fun, I think Phil might be one of these entities – he does seem to know rather too much about us – any way I’m not technically minded – I just like wacky ideas.

I’m also intrigued when things go wrong in computers and systems – if analogue circuits go wrong then you expect to see funny/bizarre results, but if digital circuits go wrong then they shouldn’t work. I was sat at the bus stop the other day and it had one of those Countdown LED systems that tell you when the bus is due – but it was fucked, kept doing these funny little glitches, which made an interesting pattern. I was wondering, why is that, sure I can expect something to go wrong, but there was a pattern to this – how did that pattern of glitches occur. I think it’s a good job I don’t get too paranoid.

[bitch one]

Originally posted by baba


so the analogue machine is so much more physical - doesn't need to translate from data into sound because the sound is already there as part of its 'body', whereas digital data has to be interpreted cos it is just data otherwise. Is this why on a digital computer you can draw a picture and stick it through some sound software and it will read interpret it into sounds. My friend did this with a knitting pattern once - she played a double knit cardy. or am i clutching at straws?

yes- digital data is effectively at one remove from reality - this is why nerds are so fond of talking about virtual this and that.

as far as a digital system is concerned, a picture is a 2 dimensional matrix of 1s and 0s, whereas a sound is a 1-dimensional set of 1s and 0s. so most operations you can do to one, you can also do to the other.

[baba]

A quick glance : grobelaar - your 'compression' compares very well with what Freud described as 'condensation' in dreams.

[grobelaar]

Originally posted by bitch one


yes- digital data is effectively at one remove from reality - this is why nerds are so fond of talking about virtual this and that.

as far as a digital system is concerned, a picture is a 2 dimensional matrix of 1s and 0s, whereas a sound is a 1-dimensional set of 1s and 0s. so most operations you can do to one, you can also do to the other.

This is interesting as one stage removed from reality, also describes our perception. We view our world one stage removed from reality. I don't think reality is something you can proove exists, you can only describe common elements and phenomanon using language and ascertain from the reaction of others that they are experiencing the same thing as you. This isn't proof its an assumption... I think?!?

So I was thinking maybe our brains are digital - but then I remembered quantum computers -

http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html

[pille'ocheoni]

i recently went to my freinds sound lab and he did a test with analoge and digital synthesis...........and honestly the differnce used to be very apparent, but that day at his house i honestly couldnt tell.........the differnce between them....

in the past analoge sounded very warm and rough..........more frequency and very appealing. but i have heard some digital shit that is so analoge its rediculus. really!

[bitch one]

Originally posted by grobelaar


This is interesting as one stage removed from reality, also describes our perception. We view our world one stage removed from reality. I don't think reality is something you can proove exists, you can only describe common elements and phenomanon using language and ascertain from the reaction of others that they are experiencing the same thing as you. This isn't proof its an assumption... I think?!?

So I was thinking maybe our brains are digital - but then I remembered quantum computers -

http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html

reality is a state of mind, maaaan.

you might think neurones are sort of digital, because they either fire or they don't fire. but again, the term digital has a very specific meaning which implies conversion of data to a series of bits - our minds patently do not do this.

[dirtyho]

I’m quite intrigued by data compression – particularly lossy systems where they compare things to see if they are similar, if they are then is simply makes them the exactly the same and doesn’t bother storing the difference.

Lossy compression in audio and video utilises known features of the human perception system to decide which information can be dropped, it is very different from data compression of computer files (e.g. PKzip etc) where no information can be dropped. Many clever tricks like comparing left to right channel (which often share a lot of the same information) and eliminating any duplication are used in audio compression. The 16Bit 44,100Khz sampling rate of CD's is also down to the assessment that anything outside this range is to all intents and purposes inaudible (but you may feel it booty bass merchants). Spatial video compression uses DCTs to convert large numbers i.e. the original binary data into a complex equation, the compression method (Motion JPEG, DV etc) is then applied to these smaller numbers. Video is also temporally compressed by comparing differences between frames to reduce redundancy and motion estimation and compensation are usually applied with modern codecs

[dirtyho]

Digital distortion sounds and looks horrible. If you hear analogue distortion it is often quite pleasant, and the grainy, noisy video look is much sort after in some fields. Hear a CD player glitch or a see a settop box fuck up an MPEG stream and you'll know what I mean. You can fall asleep to a record stuck in a groove but a jumping CD will drive you mad I think.

[grobelaar]

Please, no one take anything I'm saying seriously... I'm not really interested in reality or science or the equations of how things work. Only the way and concept behind how things work/happen/etc are of interest to me... the rest is too boring for words...

I hate science and I hate the technical side of things - I hate people do high level research with no mind for philosophy of why or what they are doing... and I hate scientists who preach theories as fact (which is most of them).

I like talking bollocks, and seeing where that goes - sometimes its right and sometimes its wrong - but that doesn't matter, it can be more interesting that reality - if you haven't guessed I want to be a science-fiction writer when I grow up...

[bitch one]

Originally posted by grobelaar
I'm not really interested in reality

you are an ostrich

[dirtyho]

I don't hate science, but I have no interest in becoming a research scientist (plus i couldn't I'm rubbish at it). I don't like scientists who preach theories as fact, especially when they seem to have some ulterior commercial motive (i.e. in GE foods etc)

I quite enjoy educating myself on the technical side of things - also I have to in order to understand what I'm doing with video. The form, narrative etc of video projects are what motivate me but without the technical knowledge i can't work efficiently, do the pieces justice or problem solve creatively.

[bitch one]

i almost became a research scientist but i became disillusioned with it and got bored. however now i do a job which is pretty stoopid so i miss using my brain, hence posting loads of shit here.

[yeeking]

Originally posted by CHIP TRONIC

is the c64 really analogue???? i don´t think so.

actually i think the c64 sound chip was part digital and part analogue. the filters were the analogue bit. I was talking to this woman who's name i forget at a retro computing conference in Aachen and she had constructed a hardware c64 emulator and went on at length about the trouble of emulating the sound chips. you can buy them for 200E i think. I'll get the url if you are interested. The board it comes on actually has an ide bus so if you fancy writing an ide driver in basic then i'm sure she'd be interested.

[grobelaar]

There's some mad bird in the US who has designed and made a commercially available C64 clone...

[grobelaar]

Oh no that's just how it started, the project evolved into a reconfigurable computer - made using Field Programmable Gate Arrays that allow you redesign the computer without evening opening it… So it could be a ZX81, Plus 4 or any 80s computer - or an entirely new one of your own choosing/design...

[baba]

gentlemen, hold your jargon back please, too many anachronyms and my eyes glaze over and I slip into a dull inert state and go all tired - can find no way in. can you be more descriptive?- i wanna understand the machine and this 'C64' sounds interesting. I know its a Commodore 64 - thats it. Hows it work?

[tsr_tomas]

http://www.sidstation.com/
this is a little tip baba.
might not give what you are looking for.. but it´s something.

[CHIP TRONIC]

You could also try some emulators!!! VICE or CCS64

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by baba


so the analogue machine is so much more physical - doesn't need to translate from data into sound because the sound is already there as part of its 'body', whereas digital data has to be interpreted cos it is just data otherwise. Is this why on a digital computer you can draw a picture and stick it through some sound software and it will read interpret it into sounds. My friend did this with a knitting pattern once - she played a double knit cardy. or am i clutching at straws?

so i'm guessing her 'valves' are her like her lymph glands/energy chakras ?

[bitch one]

?