Any minute now...

[grobelaar]

This is it, they're actually counting down on Live TV, unbelievable... stunning and even if they decide to go to tomorrow it'll still be on Live TV...

All the footage looks really sinister - I've spent most of my adult life, playing and designing wargames, so naturally I do actually take a lot of interest in war - but this is the first time I've had this sinister feeling - its like we're the bad guys - when the fuck did that happen - we're the bloody bad guys - fucked up... :-(

[s0m3:b1rd]

yes, we are the evil ones.

i've never bin patriotic but i do feel pretty ashamed right now.
and very sad.

[grobelaar]

A bit worried about my interest in war now - seems a bit unethical now?!?

[s0m3:b1rd]

wot u mean?

[invisibleplanet]

they are talking about 'post war rebuilding of iraq' ...

[s0m3:b1rd]

ah, thx ip.
could it be the rebuilding might be the only good thing to come out of it?

[maudular]

@ oiseau
if you take the precedent exemples of what occidental countries, USA and Russia have "rebuilt", there can't be any good thing coming out of it...

[invisibleplanet]

no
the usa are contaminating their already arrid and landmined farmland with delepted uranium bombs

[maudular]

I think "we", and I'd rather use "they" haven't sort anything out, but make it worst and worst on the contrary, by carrying on selling weapons and creating conflicts in poor countries (so-called peripheric wars of the cold war), and keep a perfect control on several markets. I think you're not beeing a twat, maybe I am pessimistic, but I'm sad when I look at those "wonderfull" institutions created after the second world war to avoid any kind of major crisis... it is just hard sometimes not to get cynical...

[s0m3:b1rd]

totally maudular. its mental how quick people forget about stuff innit?

[s0m3:b1rd]

i'm reading a book at the mo called 'dark moon'. its about how the u.s never landed on the moon and how the cold war was totally fabricated and that the russians and u.s were working together on the space race. pretty good stuff - you should check it out.

[maudular]

that freaks me out yes. I mean, I have the chance to have my grandfather who told me a lot about war... then yes I read more stuff about it in books, and satirical newspaper... just that I don't see the point of taking any information seriously about this war when it comes out of a tv screen, a radio or a newspaper... even over 50 years afterwards, it's hard to tell sometimes what's true from what is not concerning 39-45... I 'm afraid when I see the effects of the modern-democratic-propaganda.

[s0m3:b1rd]

yep. its all very well going on about digital information age etc, but all it does is give 'them' even more chance to manipulate media. my, this post-modern era we live in sure is scary. this is when i think cynicism is very healthy.

[invisibleplanet]

i thought the cold war was one long trade embargo??

[LEFTHANDLOU]

Man we are going to see some really fucked up shit in our life time. This war is going to be the start of some really bad times ahead.

I pray for the poor innocent people that are going to loose their life.

[s0m3:b1rd]

may well be, just that the book i was reading was all about the space race.

[maudular]

mmm, I don't know. I think on the contrary cynism is dangerous caus it kills hope, which is what I need big time... and I remember as well reading that James Nachtway was trying to never get cynical, though he takes photos of hell, that hell, all around created by a little powerfull circle of blokes...

[s0m3:b1rd]

LEFTHANDLOU-
hey call me a pessimist but i reckon this is gonna end up in us all losing our lives. this is it man. the end is nigh.

[s0m3:b1rd]

ok, maybe not cynicism, but certainly you gotta question everything.

[maudular]

you can be sure it's gonna end up by losing your life...at some point !
not now though... I think before any occidental country get something nasty, US army would have yet killed a lot...

[s0m3:b1rd]

did you listen to john denham's resignation speech? (i'm guessing not as you are in barcelona - he is an mp here who resigned cos of the war) it was wicked. he said that after 9/11, the us had sympathy all around the world and, as the only 'superpower', could and should have used it to make an example to the world that it needed to come together peacefully in a way never seen before. instead they attacked and lost all sympathy. never a truer word spoken in the houses of parliament methinx

[LEFTHANDLOU]

Yes this is going to end our way of life in one way or another. I don't think people really realize how good we have it. The majorty of the world is fucking poor. And the US is going to look as bad if not worse than Germany did after WWII. I mean Bush is pretty much saying that we are the only Superpower and we will do whatever we like, fuck the UN, fuck what people think. Sad fucking times this is. Just goes to show how improtant it is to Vote. The problem is we only get shity choices.

[jamyna]

@grobelaar
we's all been bad guys playin like good guys with all them freedom and peace words to fool ya n'all...

going swimmingly so far, maybe we should resolve all our differences with other nations this way! but seriously folks, ok just the ones who could work better for us if they were different. but think about this, the only country to every actually USE a weapon of mass destruction in the true sense is.... guess who? people in glass bubbles shouldn't throw cruise missiles...or something...
y'know there really is fukkall point protesting about it either now though. they wanted it so bad and now they've GOT IT dude. everything you hear from the telly etc this point on is 90 percent lies and rubbish now anyhoo.

[maudular]

I didn't hear the speech. I basically share the global idea that America had an opportunity maybe to reconsider the situation, sadly because of a terrorrist attempt. And obviously didn't do , in a sane way...

[s0m3:b1rd]

LEFTHANDLOU-
yeah, i guess with what happened in your last election the voting thing is pretty poignant, but i think that here the general concensus is that the majority of people don't want war and labour got in pretty comfortably so people are wondering what the point is of voting if govt ain't even gonna listen to the people. some fuckin democracy.

[s0m3:b1rd]

maudular-
yep. mr bush is not the most logical of men. first, after 9/11, he bombs afghanistan, forcing al queada to spread when before they were pretty much contained in one place. then, he insists on starting a war in a part of the world that is already very unstable, without un authority.
i do shit without thinkin sometimes but i ain't the most powerful man in the world.

[maudular]

that's true people wonder why they should vote... right wing, left wing... all the same ... let's not vote after all, and do the garden instead... and oh surprise ! a extreme-right wing pig was about to get president in France, another one shines in Austria, a masked one is grinning in Spain...

[maudular]

and so the list goes on... maybe that's a shame some people don't realise the chance they have to vote... but I understand the feeling of protestation people want to give by not voting... though I'd rather vote white...

[s0m3:b1rd]

i agree in principle but its hard when faced with a bunch of parties, all of which you don't like. then there's the whole 'wasted vote' thing. vote for a party you like and you can bet you're life only a handful of other people do and the right-wing pig gets in anyway.
that france thing was pretty mental tho. didn't they have one of the biggest turn-outs ever for the final vote after wots-his-face right-wing pig got through the initial vote? ...kinda promising.

[maudular]

I didn't hear the speech. I basically share the global idea that America had an opportunity maybe to reconsider the situation, sadly because of a terrorrist attempt. And obviously didn't do , in a sane way...

[LEFTHANDLOU]

Unfortunately I was not just referring to the last election, I think in general we get to choose between two elitest candidates, and you pretty much pick the lesser of the two evils. All these guys are from rich families, private schools, and don't know a damn thing about poverty, or the general populations needs. Its all a fucking sham. The sadest thing about man kind is that we need leaders, and boarders, and friends, and enemies. Lets face it we are some weak dependant overly emotional beasts.

[s0m3:b1rd]

that we are.
how the fuck did we ever end up top of the food chain?

[invisibleplanet]

are we the top of the food chain?

[s0m3:b1rd]

yez

[invisibleplanet]

any minute now, bush will speak to the world

[s0m3:b1rd]

hear the gunfire?

[s0m3:b1rd]

bush spks at 3.15. ...that should put some clarity on the situation (???)

gosh, i wish it was easier to be sarcastic in writing.

[piscaries]

i'm watching the news and the reporter said "this will be the most televised event in history" isn't that fucking sick?

[pille'ocheoni]

it happened!............bombs are falling...............oh how the reality of this planned event now makes my stomach turn due to inocents in the streets.

[namshub]

me=so sad. and our fuckin shit eating scum govt is supportin it. Respect to all tha activists and ppl who give a shit.

[ischo]

it's a bad world we live in

[ischo]

allright....wake up and watch

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/

[grobelaar]

Originally posted by s0m3:b1rd
ok, maybe not cynicism, but certainly you gotta question everything.

The Russian's whipped the US at the Space Race - I think your book is a bit far fetched though - the Russians would be up for co-op but the US did and still does hate communism...

The Russians even designed a shuttle before the US - the US ripped off the design...

[phil]

You design wargames? what a shit vibe that must be. Are you talking about computer games?

[Ubik]

http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/35372_1.jpg

[mr franks]

...did anyone see the american admiral telling his troops, to the sound of cheesy rock, "its hammer time"? - the world is mad.

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by mr franks
...did anyone see the american admiral telling his troops, to the sound of cheesy rock, "its hammer time"? - the world is mad.

no
media has taken over the asylum
The Global Village has become the Global Pillage

[phil]

its hammer, go hammer, yo hammer, mc hammer and the rest can go and play.can't touch this. pure genius.

[Marolo]

If you are against war please go out and protest today, its better than being complacent.
http://uk.indymedia.org/
http://stopwar.org.uk/

[mr franks]

Originally posted by invisibleplanet



media has taken over the asylum


..i wish it had, it would be doing a better job than bush and his cronies, who are the people running the asylum (and sanctioned by the american supreme court!)

[decadnids]

Originally posted by phil
its hammer, go hammer, yo hammer, mc hammer and the rest can go and play.can't touch this. pure genius.

I saw it again last night.
it was fucking weird, and funny.

I was waiting for it all to kick of and that geezer to start dancing
hammer style!.

fucking freaks!

[gunjack]

i missed all this, a link would be amazing.............

[mr franks]

Originally posted by decadnids


I saw it again last night.
it was fucking weird, and funny.

I was waiting for it all to kick of and that geezer to start dancing
hammer style!.

fucking freaks!

.....it was fucking sick, i dont know what was more chilling, an 50 odd year old man alluding to the might of the american forces by quoting MC Hammer, or all the troops hyped up on their speedballs...

[s0m3:b1rd]

Originally posted by grobelaar


The Russian's whipped the US at the Space Race - I think your book is a bit far fetched though - the Russians would be up for co-op but the US did and still does hate communism...

The Russians even designed a shuttle before the US - the US ripped off the design...

it is true that as early as 1833, the russians were interested in space travel. in this year a man called konstantin tsoilkovsky declared that space travel would be possible and in 1895 he discovered that liquid propellants would be more efficient than solid propellants. in 1903 he published a treatise on space travel including a basic premise that still exists today: that astronauts would need to recline at take off.
but the development of the space program actually relied on german designs. a scientist called Wernher von Braun developed the first rocket (V2) for the german army. during the last phases of WWII he, his team and all german rocket bases and their equipment were captured by the US, the scientists interrogated, then offered contracts with the US army. Most of the equipment and plans were assigned to the US and Soviet Union as a majority of these nazi bases were within Soviet occupied territory.
WvB developed US army ballistic missiles between 1945-58 and in 1958 the redstone rocket (named after the place it was developed - redstone arsenal, Huntsville, Alabama) put the first US satellite into orbit. on july 1 1960, WvB and his team were drafted to NASA where WvB became head of the NASA marshall space centre.
although he died in 1965, all US and russian rocket designs were and are still based on his original V2 today.
the russians achieved many space 'firsts'. they put the first satellite, crew, etc in space and were the first to make an un-manned lunar landing and collect samples from the moon, and while the americans put all their efforts into reducing the weight of their craft to get it into space, the russians were trying to develop ways of putting more weight up there - a far more logical and potentially successful approach.
what my book argues is that the space race was very expensive and in order to generate the kind of funds needed (remember that, unlike the soviet union at the time, the US needed public approval to plough that much money into a project) they fabricated a 'war' against communism and a race with the soviets to fuel public anger and gain the support they required to get to the moon. the soviets and US actually collaborated on many space projects as scientists very rarely let politics get in the way of what is often a lifetime of work - as is shown by WvB's readiness to accept a US contract that obviously had more money behind it than what the german govt would have been able to offer after WWII.
obviously, american dislike for communism was and is real, but the cold war was very much an exaggeration of this to allow america to assign huge funds to NASA which, in turn, benefited the Soviet union due to the collaboration with the american govt on this project.
the landing of man on the moon was fabricated as public support in america was dwindling after so many disasters and loss of life.

[invisibleplanet]

source please????? @s0m3b1rd

[s0m3:b1rd]

'dark moon - apollo and the whistle-blowers'
mary bennett and david s. percy.
aulis publishers, london, 1999.

i'm not sure i believe all of it but its a very interesting read.
i certainly believe that man never landed on the moon - the evidence is pretty overwhelming.