BONZAI IS DEAD, only a start

[euterke]

Hi everyone... I'm not a fan at all of this label or this kind of music but I think this will reflect a lot of the futur music industrie versus MP3 downloaders... so please if u like an artist buy is record...


PERSBERICHT - COMMUNIQUE DE PRESSE - PRESS RELEASE: BONZAI

"Dat een prestigieus Belgisch label als Bonzai over de kop gaat,
kan en mag niet onopgemerkt voorbij gaan. Het ongecontroleerde illegale copiëren en downloaden van muziek eist zijn tol; na een lange reeks van ontslagen en afvloeiingen in diverse firma's, heeft
nu ook het vooraanstaande Bonzai de strijd verloren en de boeken
moeten neerleggen. Jarenlang stond Bonzai aan de top van de
Belgische dance-scene; het scoorde internationale successen met
artiesten als Push, Energy 52 en Yves Deruyter om er maar een paar te noemen en was een solide professioneel platform voor beginnend Belgisch talent; de platenmaatschappij News, die tevens optrad als distributeur van de Bonzai vinylcatalogus, betreurt ten zeerste dat een jarenlange samenwerking met een partner en vriend op deze manier moet beëindigd worden: "Wij hopen dat iedereen die zich bezighoudt met het illegaal copiëren en downloaden van muziek er stil bij staat, dat de muziekindustrie en in het bijzonder de "dance" industrie, met serieuze moeilijkheden te kampen heeft."

News hoopt dan ook dat de wettelijke regeling van het donwloaden en copiëren niet lang meer op zich laat wachten."


"Le fait qu'une prestigieuse maison de disque belge comme Bonzai
rend l'âme ne peut ni ne doit passer inaperçu. Le copiage et le
téléchargement incontrôlés et illégaux fait des victimes;
après une longue série de licenciements et de départs anticipés qui a touché plusieurs entreprises, l'éminent label Bonzai a perdu la bataille et a dû déposer le bilan. Pendant des années, Bonzai se trouvait au sommet de la dance-scene en Belgique; elle a obtenu des succès internationaux avec des artistes comme Push, Energy 52 et Yves Deruyter, pour en citer quelques-uns et elle était une plate-forme solide pour les talents belges naissants; la maison de disque News, qui opérait également comme distributeur du catalogue de disques vinyle de Bonzai, regrette beaucoup qu'une coopération de longue date avec un partenaire et ami ait pris fin de cette façon. "Nous espérons que ceux qui pratiquent le copiage et le téléchargement illégal de musique se rendent compte que l'industrie de la musique, en particulier celle de la dance, se voit confrontée à de sérieuses difficultés." En effet, News espère que la législation sur le copiage et le téléchargement ne se fera plus attendre."

"A prestigious Belgian label such as Bonzai going bankrupt cannot
and should not go unnoticed. Uncontrolled illegal copying and downloading of music is taking its toll; after a long series of dismissals and redundancies in several companies, Bonzai has now also lost the battle and has had to close down. For years, Bonzai
headed the Belgian dance scene with international successes and artists such as Push, Energy 52 and Yves Deruyter, to name but a few. In addition, it also provided a solid professional platform for emerging Belgian talent. The record company News, also acting as a distributor for the Bonzai vinyl catalogue, thoroughly regrets that a long-lasting collaboration with a partner and a friend should end this way: “We hope that this makes everyone who’s into illegally copying and downloading music, think about the fact that the music industry, and the dance industry in particular, is in serious trouble.” News therefore hopes that there will soon be a statutory regulation concerning downloading and copying.”

[Sheridan]

so do they have any hard evidence that mp3s caused them to go out of business?? what about mismanaged funds, loss of distribution, or maybe they were releasing shit records that no one bought.
to say that mp3s caused this is a weak excuse.

[wheezer]

exactly sheridan, maybe it's just that bonzai's time had passed? most of their major hits were 5-6 years old, weren't they?

[deccard]

there was a nice article in the last keyboardsmag...
the digital revolution will eat the oldfashioned (music)industry...instead of complaining we should find a solution. mp3 can´t be stopped.
close a filesharingsystem there will be another. pandora´s box is already opened.
the honest thief filesharing system is for example a starter...not the final solution...
build a big fund a get ur money by downloadratings or something...best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him to a friend.
now are hardtimes because something is dying and something new is developing...

but who cares about bonzai anyway? *shrugs*

[M H]

There's more: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.02/dirge.html

I do feel that it's the majors that will suffer more and the Album market as well I suppose, but at the end of the day DLing an MP3 is not the same as having a fresh slice of vinyl, with cool artwork etc, if anything hearing a cool MP3 will encourage me to buy something on vinyl.....
As for the Bonzai thing, trance got hyped and this is what happens.......

[pille'ocheoni]

bonzai was terrible

[owain_k]

I heard on the grapevine that a similar status label in the UK may also succomb to the same fate.....

Granted this is being attributed to illegal MP3 downloads in this case, but I personally don't believe this is the singal causal factor.

For a start, general vinyl sales have been slumping for over a number of years now, coupled with the rediculous licensing fees publishers ask of said labels for "hit club tracks", large life styles of label bosses (in some cases) & over expansion of general business are all potential factors which can collude to put people
out of business......

[FiST]

I agree with mh,that hearing some good new stuff on mp3 will make me want to go bug my local record store to get that record in, or buy it from the site that provided the mp3 in the first place. :D

[deccard]

ninja tune doesn´t have decreasing sales...

[M H]

I think, although it's not a good thing if you are living off of producing music, decreasing sales is just something we have to live with, also it must logcally reduce commercialism as there is less and less money to be made... unfortunatly though it dosn't neccesarily work like this as labels refuse to put out less commercial material.....

this is a constant conundrum for me....

[pille'ocheoni]

yeah thats because ninja tune is the shit!...........when is clifford gilberto coming out with a new lp?

[deccard]

dunno...i got two cd´s from him (bought by heard earned money)

[wheezer]

For years, the safest path to success in the music business has been to hunt the teen market. But by ignoring career artists at the expense of the latest trends, the labels have lost touch with wide swaths of society. Ultimately, Timothy suggested to me that night, the industry as we know it could vanish not so much because of technology but because few people over the age of 30 would care if it did. "I can't believe that the business I've spent my life with could be about to disappear," he said. "And I also can't believe it's happening so fast."


hits the nail on the head. the fact of the matter is that majors have never really been interested in any new technology related to music, "home taping kills music" anyone? they jumped at the chance of cutting costs by switching to cd's as a primary format, stupidly thinking that it would never be possible for the private user to copy them. it just goes to prove that they had no knowledge whatsover how digital technology actually works...

I think I mentioned this somewhere else already, but salon had questioned some record execs concerning what musical artists they considered to be big earners in the next ten years, and the beatles were still at number one. if that's not a wake up call concering the current state of popular music, I don't know what is.

Another factor is individualism - noticed all those dumbfuck fanta ads, buttugly car designs or apple's "think different" slogan? people don't want to listen to the exact same stuff as everybody else on their street, they don't want to wear the same clothes anymore, etc. perhaps the time of the great unifying song/artist and thus the opportunity to get rich and famous overnight is just passing?

[euterke]

I didn't have any interest at all in Bonzai... what so erver... in fact every year... we can see an evolution of mp3 user-downlaoder (around 8% incr/year).


I sure there is no solution against piracy... what is sad is when u try to leave from your work... Imagine a sec that u produce an album and you only sell 200 copies.. and u see all your track on Kasa dowloaded a thousand times...


You will trie to go play live cauz a lot of people will know you... but will charge a lot of cash at the door... and nobody will came...


I don't know what will be the solution... same thing for crack and warez... u try, u like, u buy...

[platinumray]

energy 52? didn't one of their tunes get released about 10 times? maybe if their music was up to date people would buy it.

i totally agree with the argument that if something is good you'll want an original copy of it.

[wheezer]

euterke, software piracy has existed since the dawn of computers and yet ms, adobe et al are still making crazy money. you're missing the point - do you have conclusive proof that people downloading mp3s hurts cd/record sales? I have conclusive proof that the major labels fabricate false statistics and/or evaluations of sales...

[euterke]

Hey wheezer , The only proof I have is the market statistic...


When people download music MP3... they won't buy the album right... so make the calcul by yourself... no sales... no money... simple as this...


If I miss the point on software piracy... the license agreement protect big enterprise like adobe from professional user... so if you are in the business and use their tool u better buy a license... cauz if they knock at your door you will be in a deep shit.

So If you have conclusive proof that the major labels fabricate false statistics and/or evaluations of sales... let us know.

[euterke]

also... MP3 has replaced ''sex" as the most looked for word on the Internet. But, what exactly is an MP3, and how much of a threat is it to the music recording industry?

[euterke]

I belive that MP3 piracy should not be illegal
Although one source says that it is illegal to copy music to a medium like MP3, I think it should be allowed for backup purposes.
I don't see anything wrong with copying music from CDs that you bought, to MP3, so you can play them on your computer.
I'm not sure about downloading MP3's that you don't own the original CD of.
Record companies, as many people complain, should get with it and embrace the MP3 technology.
It is a great technology, and everyone would benefit from it.
Companies should offer songs for download from the Internet, possibly for a small price.
For people who don't like buying a CD just for one song, so it would be easier to just have a MP

[wheezer]

Originally posted by euterke
I belive that MP3 piracy should not be illegal
Although one source says that it is illegal to copy music to a medium like MP3

illegal where? it may be in some countries, but def. not the whole world.

as for the fabrication, I'm digging for the article, will post it here as soon as I've found it.

[euterke]

cool

[euterke]

What I meant... the problem is not MP3... the technology... cauz it's nice to exchange your work in a light way... less bandwith consuming...

[euterke]

MAybe you're looking for this http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/knowledge_goods/records.pdf

[wheezer]

here's a couple that are of interest:

RIAA's Statistics Don't Add Up to Piracy
http://www.azoz.com/music/features/0008.html

Fast CD-R Drives Make for Twice the Piracy
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/15/1759227&tid=141

Record Label Thrives Selling CD-Rs
http://nytimes.com/2003/02/17/business/media/17FOLK.html

In re: Compact Disc Minimum Advertised
Price Antitrust Litigation Settlement
http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm

States Sue Record Companies For Price Fixing
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000808/ts/media_compactdiscs_dc_3.html

CD Sales: Downloading & Burning
http://www.bricklin.com/recordsales.htm

File sharing: Innocent until proven guilty
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/06/13/liebowitz/index.html

Technology Is Movies' Angel, but Record Industry's Devil
http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Movies-X!ArticleDetail-64586,00.html

still haven't found exactly the article I was looking for, because they really like to play around with their sales statistics a lot too... gotta go see a movie now, will post more later. happy reading =)

[pille'ocheoni]

yeah deccard i have both those albums, i heard he was spossed to release this year but i dunno, he's probally gotton even better

[euterke]

Why do u you think movie industry is trying to change DVD encryption format so often... might be a good reason $$$

[euterke]

Technology Is Movies' Angel, but Record Industry's Devil

http://events.calendarlive.com/top/...ATimes-Movies-X!ArticleDetail-64586,00.html

Doesn't work...

[4md]

I listenned to bonzai when I was 13... They were innovative ...but right now I think this label is pure shit ... and nobody will make me beleive that MP3 killed them ... I 'm totally agree with Wheezer

[euterke]

Originally posted by wheezer
here's a couple that are of interest:

...

[b]Fast CD-R Drives Make for Twice the Piracy
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/15/1759227&tid=141
What the eckh is that one?
Record Label Thrives Selling CD-Rs
http://nytimes.com/2003/02/17/business/media/17FOLK.html I don't want to register to New York time...

In re: Compact Disc Minimum Advertised
Price Antitrust Litigation Settlement
http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm
C'mon ... this one is your best one...hehe...

States Sue Record Companies For Price Fixing
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000808/ts/media_compactdiscs_dc_3.html
Wheezer... an other good one... did u tried a random ulr creator... maybe ur crack doesn't work well[/QUOTE]

Okay I give up... your points with all your article or so convincing...

[euterke]

Originally posted by 4md
I listenned to bonzai when I was 13... They were innovative ...but right now I think this label is pure shit ... and nobody will make me beleive that MP3 killed them ... I 'm totally agree with Wheezer

I never listen to Bonzai at all... I don't think MP3 kill them to... maybe their artistic direction (kind of goa trance shit)...

We will see what will happen with the industry, maybe in 5 or 10 years from now.

[wheezer]

Originally posted by euterke
Technology Is Movies' Angel, but Record Industry's Devil

http://events.calendarlive.com/top/...ATimes-Movies-X!ArticleDetail-64586,00.html

Doesn't work...

hmm that's because this forum engine cut the link, it was too long.

http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-
LATimes-Movies-X!
ArticleDetail-64586,00.html

take all three lines and combine them into one.

[wheezer]

What the eckh is that one?


try reading. goes to show exactly the kind of shit the riaa pulls, they had a bust, found 156 actual cd-r drives, however their press statement said that they found 421 ( press statement here http://riaa.org/PR_Story.cfm?id=592 ). when later asked how come they claimed that it were 421, their official statement was that this was because some of the drives were "particularly fast". and you trust their statistics, huh?

full article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28574.html

[wheezer]

Wheezer... an other good one...

it's a story explaining the other link "C'mon ... this one is your best one...hehe... " in more plain english, I guess it must've been cached with my provider. there is antitrust suit going against the major labels in the us because they fixed prices on their cds (to be exact, they raised the price per cd $0.25 above the inflation rate per year, while wages were going down), in times of a economic downturn. could this have anything to do with the drop in sales? hmm... no I think it's the evil pirates. to back that up a bit more, here's a more indepth analysis of the correlation between cd sales and cd prices:
http://scriban.com/movabletype/2002_04_12.html

here is another study of bands sales and their hypes to tide you over till I've found the link, however it seems to me like you're not actually reading anything but have rather made your opinion up already.

http://www.airwindows.com/analysis/Evergreens.html

did you read the salon article? this is about an economist who himself wrote a paper that has been quoted and used by the riaa, as saying that file-sharing hurts the music business - 6 months later he goes on record that while he "does not know why", there is no statistical evidence to back the claims from his earlier paper.

here's a study by the university of buffalo showing that filesharing cuts down on the superstar phenomenon while promoting new music:
http://www.buffalo.edu/news/fast-execute.cgi/article-page.html?article=56420009

and finally, the riaa first started claiming that napster was hurting their cd sales in 1999, a year in which their sales were still going up

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/02/27/1549234

the year thereafter, 2000, they claimed that cd sales had dropped by 39%. check out this analysis how they calculated that number (and this is the article I was speaking of earlier:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/02/26/1812213

so we'll talk again after you've read and understood those, alright?

[euterke]

Source and stats can tell many thing depending on wich side of view you are... also... I don't believe in the objectivity and integrity on every article pick up on the net. Music indistry is a plague for music artist in general. Making so much money in ration of what they pay for the artist work...

In other way, I don't know if you are like me, but I consume a lot of cd's and plate per month (I bought around 10 cd's + 10-15 plates)... Listen to them for a few weeks and they alway finished on the discotheque... If I was using mp3 (that could be very economic for me) I wouldn't respect in some way the work of the artist... cauz everywork need to be paid.

If music industry make too much cash on the back of the artist , we must find a solution (kind of pay per use direct to the artist) it will be harder for them to live from their art... it need ajustment...

If we remember somewhere in the 80's... when video recorder were in... A lot of movie theater shot down... blame it the video store and the vhs recorder - it was scary for them at this point. People were rented a lot of videotape... in some place it was possible to get recorded copies and so on.

After decades... now there is a plenty of movie theater, cauz people understand in someway how it so pleasant to watch movies on a huge screen with a nice sound system.

It doesn't need statistic and number to understand and figure out what will happen in few year... poeple will learn how it could be easy to get some free music on the net... they will think how much money they will save (kind of egocentric way of thinking - it's like if your boss was asking you to work for free) at this point MP3 music piracy will kill the radio star...

[wheezer]

Source and stats can tell many thing depending on wich side of view you are...

but on the other hand, your personal opinion alone is enough? I showed you mine, now show me yours.

In other way, I don't know if you are like me, but I consume a lot of cd's and plate per month

likewise, in particular I've noticed that with me using soulseek et al, my consumption of vinyls (I don't buy cd's) has gone up considerably, simply because I can check out more stuff.

If I was using mp3 (that could be very economic for me) I wouldn't respect in some way the work of the artist... cauz everywork need to be paid.

I absolutely agree - it's just that I think people are willing to pay for something if it is good.

If music industry make too much cash on the back of the artist

which as far as I know they do


we must find a solution (kind of pay per use direct to the artist) it will be harder for them to live from their art... it need ajustment...

a lot of artists are saying the solution is to rock the foundation of the industry itself, the end of major labels...

If we remember somewhere in the 80's... when video recorder were in... A lot of movie theater shot down... blame it the video store and the vhs recorder - it was scary for them at this point. People were rented a lot of videotape... in some place it was possible to get recorded copies and so on.

After decades... now there is a plenty of movie theater, cauz people understand in someway how it so pleasant to watch movies on a huge screen with a nice sound system.

You're contradicting yourself - so VCRs obviously weren't the end of movie theaters, and DVDs don't seem to be the end of movie theaters either - yet the MPAA (movieland correspondent of the RIAA) hailed the VCR as the end of it. Similar things can be said about recordable cassette players, etc. If all these technologies for copying media did not spell the end of the corresponding industry and/or the content producers, why is it different this time around? coincidentally, this was exactly the point in the cato study link I posted in this thread.

It doesn't need statistic and number to understand and figure out what will happen in few year...

That's not understanding, at best it is speculation.

[euterke]

Originally posted by wheezer


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we remember somewhere in the 80's... when video recorder were in... A lot of movie theater shot down... blame it the video store and the vhs recorder - it was scary for them at this point. People were rented a lot of videotape... in some place it was possible to get recorded copies and so on.

After decades... now there is a plenty of movie theater, cauz people understand in someway how it so pleasant to watch movies on a huge screen with a nice sound system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You're contradicting yourself - so VCRs obviously weren't the end of movie theaters, and DVDs don't seem to be the end of movie theaters either - yet the MPAA (movieland correspondent of the RIAA) hailed the VCR as the end of it. Similar things can be said about recordable cassette players, etc. If all these technologies for copying media did not spell the end of the corresponding industry and/or the content producers, why is it different this time around? coincidentally, this was exactly the point in the cato study link I posted in this thread.


No I'm not... Peut-ëtre que ma langue maternelle n'est pas celle de l'anglais... Maybe I didn't explain it well... but what happen... at first ... the movie industry were afraid that what will happen with the vhs stuff will kill a part of the movie theater market... Right? This really happen in the first part of the 90's...

Some adjustment came and after a while... people were tired of cocooning at home... so going out for a movie came back in force... u don't have to wait six months (video rental) to see a movie.


likewise, in particular I've noticed that with me using soulseek et al, my consumption of vinyls (I don't buy cd's) has gone up considerably, simply because I can check out more stuff.


This is a good purpose using MP3 technology... it's a nice way to promote music.. I'm totally with u on this... but if u don't buy cd's... u might download mp3 album... On this.. u know what I think...