web skills

[pille'ocheoni]

i just wanted to ask you web guys some questions concerning my own progress in the web field. ive recently been going to school for web devolpment and web programing. im worried i will not be prepared with the skills i need to be a desired employee. are there any certain areas you guys would suggest is a good skill to perfect? im kind of afraid ill be the guy reading all my school books at work trying to understand what th hell my employer is talking about.

@weezer_how long have you been in the web field?

@invisibleplanet_same question.

and do you guys see any lacking kills in the industry?

thanks guys./pille'ocheoni

[invisibleplanet]

yes - learn how to link databases to your webpages.

i don't regard myself as being in the industry! i'm a freelancer earning a crust.

[pille'ocheoni]

if you dont mind me asking what do you do for a living planet?.......and that pic is funny as shit. i hope i wont be doing that.

[phono]

don't care about it, pille!

produce music! :)

[invisibleplanet]

the picture comes from http://autsch.rtl.de/ a great german humour site.

there's no mystery...i make websites to avoid starving. i work from home which suits me.

[pille'ocheoni]

heheheh.......how will i make money when im 35 and have ten kids? making beats nowadays just dosent cut it. im hopefully releaseing something soon on a small record label with my freind, and we probally wont see jack shit for money. i wish i could just write music all day and make money. that would be great.:)

[pille'ocheoni]

@planet. can you show me some websites you created? and do you have any knowledge of php and or sql programing? cus thats what im afriad of. im almost done at this school and i just have a basic background of these areas. i think ill be allright, i just want to be desirable, and make enough money to see the world

[invisibleplanet]

no :) sorry

[pille'ocheoni]

ah...well maybe my intial worries fail me............thanks for your response.

[invisibleplanet]

make clearer...no sorry - i don't want to show u my sites. yes..php/sql/vb/asp all good to learn re: websites.

[pille'ocheoni]

hmmmm..........ok

[phono]

pille, at 35 you'll write music for nightmare movies! :)))

[Mirsha]

SQL is probably one of the most key skills to learn to be a desireable employee for web based stuff, I've found most of the languages I've used are usualy very easy to pickup , PHP seems very snazzy with a host of functions aimed at making DB intergration as easy as possible.

[4md]

PHp & ASP are nowadays required skills to be a web-designer... I'm learning this caus' I' ve seen lots of mY clients wanting database ...
Buy some books, search for ressource on da web

[invisibleplanet]

"asp for dummies" is good!
plenty of resources on the web, but a book to read away from the screen is a nice relief!

[pille'ocheoni]

sounds good. i have a asp class and a sql class coming up but i just wanted to be some what prepared if thats possible. im doing simple practicals at school now, like setting up database servers and dealing with problems and solving them. i have 5-6 more months of school left and i hope they prepare me for what i need to be successfull........

?.......did most of you guys do any internships before you got your first " job "?

[grobelaar]

ASP, That's what I want to learn next - this is the thing that lets me create pages from a database - so I put the content into a database and then have some doodah thingie that gets the content from the database and creates the pages - if its that, then definitely - I should have considered this before doing a content heavy website - everytime I make a change I have to go through every single f'ing page and make the change... grrr...

[invisibleplanet]

nooooo pille! I am self-taught - and it's killing me!
I need school - my aim is to put myself thru a uni degree for multimedia & databases*g even though the tutor asked me how come I need a degree when i'm already selling websites. My answer - I'm self taught, really quite shit, and I need more info! I need to make money while I do this degree, or find a sugar daddy :!

[wheezer]

@pille

I'm a student of CS right now, and I started writing HTML back in 96 - PHP I taught myself after having learned Scheme and C in school, and I've be going about getting clients the same way as IP methinks... as for skills; SQL & PHP are essential imho, I don't like ASP nearly as much, but that's a matter of taste...

[pille'ocheoni]

thanks guys. ill take your advice and go over and beyond to really grasp these subjects. everything here at school moves so fast and its hard to keep all the imformation fresh. ive rquested some after school practical tests, so i can get familair with troubleshooting servers and especially those database servers. i too have made websites in the past, but really havent had the clientel to do anything here lately. hopefullly ill get my CIW this week. not really sure what other tests i have to take considering there's more than one. well thanks again, and take care.j

[MUX]

im also a free-lance webdesigner
i took three years working experiance from my previous imployment, and filled my resume with soem pretty nice maltese corporate clients.

i am totally self taught but, it doesnt limited my market down here.. cause they are still in the 'pizzaz' stage of web development.. they want a all singing/dancing website and dont really care if the website is usable or not, and i tend to take advantage of this with pricey flash websites..

but thinking of the future, im currently teaching myself.. mostly flash with asp databasing, cause it can add a funky element to large databases of data. for example imagine a total flash driven record shop.. would look amazing and still be usable cause the data will be real time loaded up from a database

[schlongfingers]

Originally posted by MUX
imagine a total flash driven record shop.. would look amazing and still be usable cause the data will be real time loaded up from a database [/B]

Would LOOK wicked, but what about search engines - where's the first place people go when searching for a record? I think you'd have a bit of trouble getting up in the results with a flash driven e commerce website, leading to a lack of visibility unless you had a huge marketing budget.

I'd definately recommend learning PHP to anyone interested in creating database driven web sites and applications, there's a fantastic book called 'PHP and MySQL Web Development' by 'Welling and Thompson' published on SAMS that gives a comprehensive overview of object orientated coding, database connectivity and real world application examples.

Also XML and XSLT is an excellent technology to get to grips with if you'd like to completely seperate content from display, check 'XML for the World Wide Web' by Elizabeth Castro for a good introduction.

[MUX]

flash and Xml is also very possible... but one sword is enuff in battle for now

[schlongfingers]

Sorry, I always get on my horse over Flash :D

I guess if you were driving the content from XML, it wouldn't be difficult to generate a search engine only version in pure optimised html, so ignore me.

[Mirsha]

Originally posted by MUX
for example imagine a total flash driven record shop.. would look amazing and still be usable cause the data will be real time loaded up from a database
Flash is one of those things I would say to avoid wherever possible simply because in many situation it's not needed in the slightest. Look at juno.co.uk for instance, their pages are updated daily against their database of stock/sales so they are as accurate as possible.

Sure their webpage doesn't look uber pretty or like a graphic designers wet dream but it doesn't need to. Your trying to sell records not show off your l33t coding skills and flash to me is one of those extras that increases loading times/bandwidth and also people with slower pc's (ie me) you're actually really damaging our ability to use the website if flash is intensive.

I'd say the principle of Ocham's razor applies in this case.

[MUX]

*wink* dont worry.. it so easy to be hated these days :)

ps. and a similar process could also make asp pages searchable.

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by pille'ocheoni
?.......did most of you guys do any internships before you got your first " job "?

nope...i used the 'will code html for food' on one of my personal websites, and my second client contacted me through this (uboot).

For every other site, I spread by personal recommendation, and I find this regulates my work. Even so, there are more people wanting small websites than large ones.

I was once put in grave danger from someone who was a close-personal friend (who also makes websites in my town). This person thought I was in competition with them, and created a great deal of trauma for me, threatening me with having my door kicked in, and my 'face smashed'. They were very clever, and said the threats came from one of their clients, with whom I was involved with on another project (not web), whom they also stirred up with that client to give me even more grievance. but I figured it out in the end, and asked the 'web designer' to speak to the police about it, as I was frightened. As I suspected, the threats were not from the client, but from my 'friend'. The threats stopped, and I don't speak to this person anymore. What is even worse, is I was threatened with violence if I did not stop using certain message boards!!

Personal advice, watch out for dirty tricks from those who think they are in competition with u, and more importantly, develop a good communication with your client.

[MUX]

keep friends close, enemies closer

[phil]

http://www.thesmokehammer.com

[decadnids]

Originally posted by invisibleplanet
nooooo pille! I am self-taught - and it's killing me!
I need school - my aim is to put myself thru a uni degree for multimedia & databases*g even though the tutor asked me how come I need a degree when i'm already selling websites. My answer - I'm self taught, really quite shit, and I need more info! I need to make money while I do this degree, or find a sugar daddy :!

Interesting - don't you reckon it would be better do do small classes for what you want to learn rather than a full degree?

I am self-taught when it comes to internet stuff, although I did my first degree in computer science. I reckon you would get more out of a series of dedicated classes rather than a full degree. I currently teach (part-time) on a Multimedia HND course, and do freelance work.

[Mirsha]

I've got a degree in computer science and artificial intelligence from Edinburgh University and I'd say going the way of individual courses would be much better. Most of my course was a fairly in depth look at how PC's work which whilst good knowledge and usefull won't help you become a web programmer all that much.

Though bear in mind thats Edinburgh University, other universities may do it differently which are more aimed towards learning specific languages which are going to be useful rather than the general stuff we did.

[wheezer]

mirsha didn't your cs department allow specialization in fields such as interactive/digital media?

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by decadnids
I reckon you would get more out of a series of dedicated classes rather than a full degree. I currently teach (part-time) on a Multimedia HND course, and do freelance work.


yes and no.

I was planning to study the HND Multimedia - which has to be applied for thru the UCAS clearing system. This can become a degree through Sheffield Hallam after an additional 1 yr.
Dedicated classes might be tough, as I wasn't aware that that asp/php/sqlwere individually taught, but I'll fone the college and find out.

[Mirsha]

Our course was based upon completing modules, every student sat 8 of them the problem was depending what you were doing you may not get a choice. For instance doing CS & AI four of my modules were picked for me (3 from CS, 1 from AI) so I only had a single module that I got to pick for CS.

So instead of learning stuff I wanted to I was forced to learn algorithms and datastructures (the course was so hard almost no one knows what it was about), computability and intractability (imagine taking code and assigning each statement a value for it's execution time then having to work out a formulae to give definite execution of time) and programming methodology (looks at some software development cycles).

So I had a single choice of module to pick for which I chose networks as I like them, I had absoloutely no chance to take the database course (who's final project was to produce an ebay like clone) or any other course that would actuall discuss stuff which would be useful to me in the fields I'm interested in.

If you go to uni although you get the degree with the good reputation you run a high risk of running into lots of stuff you will really hate. I spent three years at uni having to deal with a programming language called SML (not machine language) which was used as a teaching language as it's recursive rather than procedural in nature. It's such a horrible shit language that should have a brick thrown into it's creators brain. You know you're in trouble when you ask the lab demonstrators for help and they take a look at your code and have no idea wha you are trying to do. However we were taught it as it was developed at the University of Edinburgh so they have some pride in it. We looked up some information on SML one day and found that a single company in the whole world located in Canada created commercial programs using ML.

At least if you enroll into a single class on a specific subject you are going to appreciate everything that is taught to you on some level, sure I may know merge sort only has a run time of n log n but but it's completely useless information in a practical sense, especialy since pc's are continously growing faster and stronger so there is less need for highly technical programmers that can get it right and optimised.

My feelings on this are strong enough that I actually finished my degree at third year rather than continuing on to 4th year as I could see that so little of what I would go over would actually be useful to me.

[invisibleplanet]

There are great opportunities for algorhythmic designers though...
however, Mirsha, I am considering all the infos you gave, and I know there is another way. I'll try to combine small courses with an HND in multimedia, as I realise now that there's no 'off the shelf' degree to suit the actual practical needs of the industry.

About your degree, I hope u wrote to Ed. Uni and pointed out the 'usefulness' of it's course!

[grobelaar]

I'm always in two minds about doing university - I'm not sure that a lot of courses are all that concerned about teaching stuff, particularly creative courses, which is what I'm interested in. I think its more about learning to bullshit - modern art being a case in point - not that I have anything against modern art - but I do think a lot of it is bullshit. Then you get technical courses which just refuse to acknowledge the aesthetic side of it - I've looked at some multi-media courses and they don't care if you turn in a deep fried turkey as long as you successfully implemented the project using everything on the syllabus... Being a bit of a perfectionist this is no good at all....

But I think the biggest crime that colleges and universites commit is not being honest and open enough about their courses - there's this big thing about people dropping out of courses in the first year - and they always blame the students for picking the wrong course - maybe they should look to some of their 'sales' literature and try and come up with more in-depth analysis of what takes place - many people choose a course based on nothing more that a one page description and a tour around some tatty studios with some of last years projects strewn about the place...

I know a South African who spent an entire year on an Interior Design course - wondering when they were going to get round to doing the furniture design bit, she asked several lecturers and never got a straight answer - of course she was on the wrong course - she was supposed to be on the Industrial Design course and got the wrong stuff sent to her by mistake.

I think given the governments new 'price' tag for university degree, in much the same way as they are insisting with the firefighters, they should modernise the universities and tell them to buck their ideas up - because people are parting with cold hard cash for these courses and they deserve better 'customer' service...

I wouldn't go to university at the moment, although individual college courses I think is the best way to get skills, without the bullshit...

[dirtyho]

Web design has split more now, when I did it as a job many html heads did both the coding and the graphics (and produced a lot of horrible sites). Now it's split more between designers and developers (not exclusively so). SQL & PHP don't have the disadvantage of being a microsoft technology (always so proprietary) and can be run on more platforms I think. I hated doing web design personally, It drove me mad as a job and bored me to tears. I still have a personal/fun site and like to muck around with the technology but the idea of doing web design fulltime fills me with dread. Each to their own however.

[decadnids]

Originally posted by invisibleplanet
There are great opportunities for algorhythmic designers though...
however, Mirsha, I am considering all the infos you gave, and I know there is another way. I'll try to combine small courses with an HND in multimedia, as I realise now that there's no 'off the shelf' degree to suit the actual practical needs of the industry.


That is true, personally the HND I teach on could do with some seious silibus changes, I am at the moment trying to push things to cover more of what is required for people in the industry, but the problem is that the majority of people on the HND are not from a technical or science background, so any mention of ASP/PHP/PERL or MySQL sends them in cold sweat.... so we have to do more front end stuff like Flash and HTML (although I am trying my hardest to teach as much ActionScripting as possible, as I believe it is vital for people to learn this to use Flash Effectivly).

[wheezer]

hmm, I had to take a datastructures and algorithms course too, and I found the exam hard, but the material was interesting enough - anyhow, that certainly has useful applications even for a lowly PHP/ASP scripter...

[pille'ocheoni]

thanks guys for this helpfull imformation. your statements have deffinetly strirred up some ideas and questions to ask my instructors.thanks :)/p

[decadnids]

Originally posted by wheezer
hmm, I had to take a datastructures and algorithms course too, and I found the exam hard, but the material was interesting enough - anyhow, that certainly has useful applications even for a lowly PHP/ASP scripter...

Dunno if you are interested, but there is a thing called MING, which is a set of extensions for PHP (and Ruby etc) for creating .swf files dynamically, it allows you to do this via a PHP script, I have only recently heard about it, but it looks pretty interesting for doing generative art pieces and for generating graphical representation of statistical data.

[karitek]

grobelar - templates work wonders. they will automatically update all the pages in your site.

pille - i know this is the last thing you want to hear, but as someone who is job hunting, the job market for web designers is really bad right now. most headhunting and temp agencies arent even taking on anyone new. so my advice, definitely learn database and html connecting and take some classes in general IT support and stuff as well...for a back up.

[pille'ocheoni]

thanks karitek, i have a couple of years of IT networking in the field and computer maintance.....i have a bunch of certifications and refrences. i think ill be allright. if i cant get a job right away, i can always go back to laying fiber, and splicing cable. its a bitch but great money. i just have to travel to a new city every three weeks. but hey.

[karitek]

ok glad to hear that no matter what you'll be fine. :) i just know too many outta work web designers to not provide some type of warning. where do you live again? i know i've asked before..

[wheezer]

Originally posted by decadnids


Dunno if you are interested, but there is a thing called MING, which is a set of extensions for PHP (and Ruby etc) for creating .swf files dynamically, it allows you to do this via a PHP script, I have only recently heard about it, but it looks pretty interesting for doing generative art pieces and for generating graphical representation of statistical data.

I've got my php 4.3 compiled with ming support integrated - there is also libswf but ming is better...

[pille'ocheoni]

ive been living in south carolina for about a year now, greenville to be specific.....which sucks but the bills are cheap and its a good place to save money and finish school. i ended up here due to finiacial issues in seattle back around x-mas of 2001-2002. so a freind lived here and so did my father, so i thought it would be a good place to chill out for a while and get some shit done. are you from nyc originally? karitek