An alternative world view...

[Yer_Maw]

Well here’s a crazy opinion for you! I think saddam should be removed however misguided the actions of the American government are. They are inadvertently doing the world a great favour

Anti Americanism gone to far

Ok so America and its corporations aren’t the nicest bunch in the world, but when did people start to hate them so much that they are willing to support saddam hussain? I think a lot of people are so blinded by fighting globalisation they are forgetting what sort of a regime people are living in there. So America wants a friendly government to get access to oil, if I lived in Iraq I would scrape what little oil I had left in the engine of my car to give to America so that I could live the rest of my life free. Although America are not be going round the world toppling terrible regimes for the greater good of mankind, i can’t help but be glad that there is no Taliban and possibly no saddam. I just hope Zimbabwe has something America wants soon...

So a pre-emptive strike is what’s bothering a lot of people. But although bush used the Munich pact to boost his political agenda, the run up to WW2 does have some significance here. Who knows how different this century could have been if France had stopped Germany sending soldiers to the Rhineland in 1936, which was directly against the treaty of Versailles "If France had then marched into the Rhineland, we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs." - Hitler. Maybe if they stood up and fought instead of shying away from confrontation when there was still a chance there might have been no ww2, no need to create Israel and no cold war. A very different century indeed. The evidence for weapons of mass destruction is a bit dubious, granted but what if, in time there are WMD and millions of people died as a result of an attack from a terrorist friendly country like Iraq? Something like that can be stopped if action is taken now, there is far too little direct action, nobody seems to want to get their hands dirty.

However i think America should go it alone. Bush keeps going on about this alliance but they only ever get involved in things when it directly involves them (pearl harbour, sinking of Lusitania). If they want to do this then they can do it themselves.

I am against war but i am happier to see the Iraqi regime topple and globalisation survive than both continuing on indefinitely.

P.s please don’t take this opportunity to take out you anger at bush/blair on me, im only trying to provoke discussion!!!

[phil]

Bablyon the great shall fall.

[M H]

I don't see what is to be gained from war in Iraq... A big destablisation of the middle east, and even MORE of a reason for total hatred of the west.... Bombing a country because they have and potentially deal in "Weapons of mass destruction" is like the police busting a drug dealer... some one will just fill their shoes i.e. by destroying the iraqi regime, you don't neccesarily rid the world of Materiels for chemical or biological warfare, there are always other sources.... and I sometimes thing the whole terrorist thing is played up more just to justify a war for oil... No doubt, Saddam is a bad man, but is Bush any better?

[phil]

Bush is satan

[Weishaupt]

unfortunately the biggest part of us(humans) are not so intellegent,to establish a productive self-preservation system.
the human need a person, wich he can assigned the responsibility for oneself.

and therefore he will follow every "manipulator of the masses", wich had a big voice like göbels. hitler, stalin, bush, sadam.............,
im sad about the dullness of the humans. but i think, that is humanly.

[wheezer]

plus all these historic what-if type questions may be fascinating, but really the alternative ww2 scenario you describe is really just one of a myriad of possible ways it could've played out...not really grounds to argue on!

[owain_k]

I'm with MH on this one: Destabilisation of the middle east, a region which has long been unsettled, is really the last thing we need !
Any action is only going to fuel an already burning fire e.g incurring more anti-western hatred amongst fundamentalists.

As I understand it, the mere presence of the US & UK armies on holy soil must be already causing waves (something which we do not see reported here.......).

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by M H
Bombing a country because they have and potentially deal in "Weapons of mass destruction" is like the police busting a drug dealer... some one will just fill their shoes i.e. by destroying the iraqi regime, you don't neccesarily rid the world of Materiels for chemical or biological warfare, there are always other sources....No doubt, Saddam is a bad man, but is Bush any better?

Liked the point that there will be other sources for weapons, I will need to have a think about that one, but is that any reason not to bother? Just because you can’t eradicate something doesn’t mean you should stop? With drugs yes because that is someone’s individual choice and no government should stop people doing what they want to themselves, but is that the case with mass murder?

Oh and im not saying bush is any better. Bush is scum, however just like the Arlene Fraser murder trial today, who let off one accused to secure the conviction of the other. One evil destroyed is better than two continuing unchecked.

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by wheezer
plus all these historic what-if type questions may be fascinating, but really the alternative ww2 scenario you describe is really just one of a myriad of possible ways it could've played out...not really grounds to argue on!

That point was meant to be a bit tounge in cheek!

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by owain_k
I'm with MH on this one: Destabilisation of the middle east, a region which has long been unsettled, is really the last thing we need !
Any action is only going to fuel an already burning fire e.g incurring more anti-western hatred amongst fundamentalists.

As I understand it, the mere presence of the US & UK armies on holy soil must be already causing waves (something which we do not see reported here.......).

Funda'mentalism' is the cause of all this, christian or muslim. Ill bet there are people over there who couldnt care less about the holy soil just as over here i bet none of us ever go to church on a sunday (im too busy drinking jaeger on a sunday morning these days :))

[M H]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw


Funda'mentalism' is the cause of all this, christian or muslim. Ill bet there are people over there who couldnt care less about the holy soil just as over here i bet none of us ever go to church on a sunday (im too busy drinking jaeger on a sunday morning these days :))


yes, but US manipulation and foreign policy are the fuel to the fundamentalist fire, who do you think armed Saddam in the first place? and who trained the Taliban? The majority of problems in this world were caused by both UK and US imperialism, and most especially US manipulation of political situations in places where they have a vested interest..

Also interesting to note is the push for war in the Middle East, as the third biggest oil producer in the world, Venezuela, is in political termoil after a failed attempt by the US for a regime change there... It's all gone horribly wrong from the US perspective, as there is now very little oil being pumped out of the ground as a general strike goes into full swing....

It all fits into place when you consider that the Oil giants of the US have never had such a close connection to the government there...

I think Bush is far more of a threat to world security and is more guilty of being involved in the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction than Saddam ever will....

[gunjack]

too easy.

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw


Funda'mentalism' is the cause of all this, christian or muslim. Ill bet there are people over there who couldnt care less about the holy soil just as over here i bet none of us ever go to church on a sunday (im too busy drinking jaeger on a sunday morning these days :))

nono

the carving up of the desert at the turn of the 20th Century and creation of countries in the middle east is part of the problem

the intereference in placing dictators by the USA in both Afghanistan and Iraq is the problem.

this shouldn't continue, and the Iraqi people will need democracy ..not some Pakistan-type farce of an election either.

[invisibleplanet]

Mark is RIGHT - every time BUSH opens his mouth to accuse Iraq etc of 'crime', we all KNOW the USA is behind it, worse than it, and as we speak - still stockpiling and developing chemical warfare, weapons of mass destruction.

what's more, they don't learn the lessons from Vietnam or Korea, and continue to give their troops amphetimines, which may keep them alert, but also cause paranoid overreaction. it's no good in a war situation.

[Django]

oh yeah...

believe in press...

they always tell you the truth..

[phil]

Armageddon.

[gunjack]

Originally posted by phil
Bush is satan
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/faeanim.gif (http://www.c-span.org/executive/stateoftheunion.asp)
8-()

[piscaries]

why don't we just speed up the colonisation of the moon? or maybe mars? we can start this whole cycle all over again!

[invisibleplanet]

we could ask the yammies to spend their $400 billion defence budget on that space program, piscaries. after all, they are pioneers!

[Yer_Maw]

I hate American foreign policy just as much as all of you. BUT my point is that if along their greedy path they happen to overthrow terrible regimes that can’t possibly be a bad thing. As I said I think it’s anti Americanism gone too far. So far that people are willing to let these regimes survive. The world can only be a better place without the Taliban and Saddam. Only once these regimes are removed can people get on with their lives just as Germany prospered after WWII.

invisibleplanet: "this shouldn't continue, and the Iraqi people will need democracy"

That’s my point! i want Iraqi people to have democracy and I see this as way for them to get it. If the 49% of Germans who didn’t vote national socialist couldn’t stop Hitler how can the Iraqi people end this and be free? America, selfish as they may be can give them a democracy.

The reasons America have are wrong but I think it’s worth it for the end result.

[gunjack]

yammies ?

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by piscaries
why don't we just speed up the colonisation of the moon? or maybe mars? we can start this whole cycle all over again!

:)

[wheezer]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw
I hate American foreign policy just as much as all of you. BUT my point is that if along their greedy path they happen to overthrow terrible regimes that can’t possibly be a bad thing.

I dunno man, your introducing something foreign into a system which should be self-balanced. sorta like when they had that <a href="http://www.grendel.org/hunter/db/calciv.html">bunny problem in Australia</a>. If somebody from the outside came to your country, overthrew your government under dubious circumstances, install some new government in its place, how would you feel towards your new government? Would you trust it to act in the peoples best interest?

[M H]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw
I hate American foreign policy just as much as all of you. BUT my point is that if along their greedy path they happen to overthrow terrible regimes that can’t possibly be a bad thing. As I said I think it’s anti Americanism gone too far. So far that people are willing to let these regimes survive. The world can only be a better place without the Taliban and Saddam. Only once these regimes are removed can people get on with their lives just as Germany prospered after WWII.



The thing is the US put these people into power and gave them the tools to run such horrific regimes.. Where do you think the iraqis got their mustard gas and biological warfare technologies from?

Bottom line is all government is run for the benefit of the government.. it's just one big protection racket whatever country you live in....

[M H]

Originally posted by wheezer


I dunno man, your introducing something foreign into a system which should be self-balanced. sorta like when they had that <a href="http://www.grendel.org/hunter/db/calciv.html">bunny problem in Australia</a>. If somebody from the outside came to your country, overthrew your government under dubious circumstances, install some new government in its place, how would you feel towards your new government? Would you trust it to act in the peoples best interest?


WORD!

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by gunjack
yammies ?

yeah, the yammies...
has no one else heard of this expression?

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by M H


The thing is the US put these people into power and gave them the tools to run such horrific regimes.. Where do you think the iraqis got their mustard gas and biological warfare technologies from?


yeah i agree and i know the US installed these regimes for themselves, and i obviously think thats terrible. But thats not the issue. The point is that no matter what i cant be against anything that will remove saddam from power, even war. Put it this way, if bush decided to attack saudi arabia for oil id have already booked my ticket to london to protest.

[grobelaar]

Hmmm, have been thinking about this a lot myself - and here's what I have to say.

In the last two general elections I haven't bothered to vote and wasn't going to in the previous one either (but was convinced otherwise). These same do-gooders are the ones that lambast me for my stance telling me that I'm being irresponsible to not vote, that it is my duty to vote - and wait for it the best one - people died in the second world war so I could vote - Hah!

After all the shit I went through, it is now with great pride, that I can say I don't vote, I didn't vote, I'm not on the electoral register - I will probably never vote.

Because the fact is at the end of the day, no matter how much marketing they dress it up with, we do not live in a democracy, no amount of protests and petitions are going to stop the governments from doing what they want to do. No protest ever has and never will.

The protesters say "Not in my Name" well this isn't in my name because I didn't vote... A somewhat hollow smugness, certainly, but to get to Weishaupt's point, humans do not naturally seek someone to lead them and someone to follow, we are not sheep. It is human nature to get on with being human and living our lives.

Only a small percentage are concerned with leadership, control and power - It has been proven psychological that the type of human exists. It is this sub-section of humanity that through some psychological anamoly clamber amongst themselves to be Prime Ministers, Presidents, Leaders, Dictators, Kings, Generals, Emporers, CEOs, Managers; to be leaders, to be in control of people and to wield power. While the rest of us get on with leading our lives and living in whatever world we have the fortune or misfortune to be born into.

Democracy is a total sham - its laughable that they sit their telling us that we are free and have control over our lives and society - its insulting and patronising...

If you want to see and alternative world view then read Aldous Huxley's (yeap that geezer again) utopian vision Island of human society and see how inevitably it can never come to pass... (well worth reading giving current times)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006547346/qid=1043967353/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/026-7408554-8446032

[gunjack]

what is a yammie please?

[grobelaar]

Hmmm, have been thinking about this a lot myself - and here's what I have to say.

In the last two general elections I haven't bothered to vote and wasn't going to in the previous one either (but was convinced otherwise). These same do-gooders are the ones that lambast me for my stance telling me that I'm being irresponsible to not vote, that it is my duty to vote - and wait for it the best one - people died in the second world war so I could vote - Hah!

After all the shit I went through, it is now with great pride, that I can say I don't vote, I didn't vote, I'm not on the electoral register - I will probably never vote.

Because the fact is at the end of the day, no matter how much marketing they dress it up with, we do not live in a democracy, no amount of protests and petitions are going to stop the governments from doing what they want to do. No protest ever has and never will.

The protesters say "Not in my Name" well this isn't in my name because I didn't vote... A somewhat hollow smugness, certainly, but to get to Weishaupt's point, humans do not naturally seek someone to lead them and someone to follow, we are not sheep. It is human nature to get on with being human and living our lives.

Only a small percentage are concerned with leadership, control and power - It has been proven psychological that the type of human exists. It is this sub-section of humanity that through some psychological anamoly clamber amongst themselves to be Prime Ministers, Presidents, Leaders, Dictators, Kings, Generals, Emporers, CEOs, Managers; to be leaders, to be in control of people and to wield power. While the rest of us get on with leading our lives and living in whatever world we have the fortune or misfortune to be born into.

Democracy is a total sham - its laughable that they sit their telling us that we are free and have control over our lives and society - its insulting and patronising...

If you want to see and alternative world view then read Aldous Huxley's (yeap that geezer again) utopian vision Island of human society and see how inevitably it can never come to pass... (well worth reading giving current times)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006547346/qid=1043967353/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/026-7408554-8446032

[splatter_kts]

"If somebody from the outside came to your country, overthrew your government under dubious circumstances, install some new government in its place, how would you feel towards your new government? Would you trust it to act in the peoples best interest?"

three words "DOGS OF WAR"
(a movie with Chris Walken..a good solution for the problem is shown in it.. pretty much a similar situation)

as for fundamentalism etc. you would be surprised by how intense the islam is in Arabic countries.. but also to be realistic no belief system tells the believers to go and kill ..all this jihad shit is bull..
terrorists represent the nations which have been kept in utter disregard politically (let's say it this way - if you guys live in a country someone else would bring like 500 000 people to ..tell you to move and bring your house down.. and then shoot you for no apparent reason.. denying you a voice.. would you not like to bomb someone or just simply shoot someone??)
as for Bush is satan thing.. the funny thing that came to my mind when i read about his state of the union - feed the hungry, heal the sick, make peace in the middle east and bomb the shit out of iraq.. hmm read the apocalypse excerpts about the beast :))
or watch THE OMEN 2 :)) where Damien talks about feeding the poor :) nice bit..
our television showed 5 movies recently which all had some clues about the thing that happened ..there is even a line in A LONG KISS GOODBYE which made me shiver ..about attacking NYC ..watch it.

take a look at the
http://www.tshirthell.com
maybe you'll find some cool ones
they had a underwear section which is somehow gone ..there were underpants with a text "wanna see my GEORGE BUSH?" i think its something that should be a mandatory buy for all the discussion participants :)

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by grobelaar


If you want to see and alternative world view then read Aldous Huxley's (yeap that geezer again) utopian vision Island of human society and see how inevitably it can never come to pass... (well worth reading giving current times)



i finished island one summers afternoon, then that evening i took mushrooms for the first time. mad experience with that book fresh in my mind :)

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by grobelaar
that I can say I don't vote, I didn't vote, I'm not on the electoral register - I will probably never vote.


What i do is draw all over my voting slip because a wasted vote still gets counted. Beats not voting because its says i dont want to vote for anyone rather than my opinion not being counted at all.

[M H]

Here's a link I just found that makes interesting reading:http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA04Ak01.html


Here's an extract:

Oil forever

The Bush administration’s ties to the oil and gas industry are beyond extensive; they are pervasive. They flow, so to speak, from the top, with a chief executive who grew up steeped in the culture of Texas oil exploration and tried his hand at it himself; and a second-in-command who came to office with a multi-million dollar retirement package in hand from his post of CEO of Halliburton Oil. Once in office, the vice president developed an energy policy under the primary guidance of a cast of oil company executives whose identities he has gone to great lengths to withhold from public view. Since taking office, the president and vice president have assembled a government peopled heavily with representatives from the oil culture from which they came. These include Secretary of the Army Thomas White, a former vice president of Enron, and Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, former president of the oil exploration company Tom Brown Inc, whose major stake in the company was worth US$13 million by the time he took office.


More and more, I believe this war is wrong, truly wrong, and will change the face of the world as we know it to a more unstable future and a New World Order.......

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by M H


More and more, I believe this war is wrong, truly wrong, and will change the face of the world as we know it to a more unstable future and a New World Order.......

I think the world is unstable enough but I don’t think were inches from a global conflict. However I’ve been worried about the pakistan/india situation since there was talk of invading Afghanistan.

I worry about escalation yes, but i feel that the nations of the world love money too much to risk entering into a global conflict and would be VERY hard pushed to end up in one. Long gone are the pre WW1 days where people are looking for an excuse to fight each other.

I have been aware of bush's ties to industry since he was a governor however no amount of anti-American sentiment that I have can make me oppose the removal of an oppressive dictatorship.

[M H]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw


I have been aware of bush's ties to industry since he was a governor however no amount of anti-American sentiment that I have can make me oppose the removal of an oppressive dictatorship.

So how would you feel about other nations in this world "Removing an oppressive dictatorship" of countries like the US and UK by force i.e. bombing the shit out of them....

Bombs do not topple regimes, they simply cause more suffering to the most vunerable people in the situation as proved in the conflict in Kosovo... if it was just a simple regime change, it would be more effective to carry this out covertly.....

This is why I feel this is no simple regime change but a real attempt to redraw the map in the middle east, so that a lot of western companies can profit...

[Yer_Maw]

Originally posted by M H


So how would you feel about other nations in this world "Removing an oppressive dictatorship" of countries like the US and UK by force i.e. bombing the shit out of them....


I’m glad you asked this question!

The ONLY reason I support war on Iraq is because I think about what it must be like to not be able to listen, read, do and think whatever I want when I want. Because like all the people going to protest in February, I feel I would have to fight what I know to be wrong. I couldn’t imagine what it would be like to sit idly by knowing that if I did try to protest for what I believed in I would end up dead or in jail without achieving anything. I think I would be hoping every day that someone would come and save us.