National ID cards to be introduced

[decadnids]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/29032006/325/national-id-cards-introduced.html



The planned biometric cards, which will carry fingerprint, iris and face recognition technology, are the world's most ambitious, say experts, and could be used as a model for other countries, includingthe United States.


CUNTS!!!!

[nikrem]

i think they're a great idea

[Loz]

I only got my passport renewed recently, so I'll be one of the last people in the country to be forced to have an ID card. Hooray!

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

Aye I made sure i got mine renewed about two years ago when all this silly talk started...

[Paddy]

just got found my old one yesterday after about two years, and this morning i went to the post office especially to pick up my application for a new one.

[gypsy_cream]

i found it ;)

[Dask]

At least my passport runs out in 2007......

[thepigjockey]

Mine runs out in 2011 and I'll see how long I can get by without one (I have an ID card which I believe I can use for travel in the EU). Not that I have anything to hide, I just wouldn't want to fork out LOADS for a COMPULSORY I.D. card at the same time as forking out for a passport.

[notorious J.I.M]

Mine runs out in 2011

Same here but I think it's worth renewing it before 2008 so I don't get forced to put my biometric data on file. Utter wankers.

[Loz]

you might get a biometric passport if you apply for one now. They're doing some, but not all passports, but not giving you a choice which one you get.

[decadnids]

i think they're a great idea
cunt!

[notorious J.I.M]

Fuck it then that gives me five years to get the hell out of this shithole on my non-biometric passport. I love the way they're making out that having an option not to carry a card for the next four years will ease people's concerns while they're still going to harvest all of your data in any way they can.
"The amendment preserves the integrity of the National Identity Register by ensuring that everyone who applies for, or renews a passport or other designated document has their biometric information and other identity details placed on the register. However, it also goes towards meeting the concerns of those who have argued that the card itself should not be compulsory at this stage by allowing those who apply for or renew their passport before 1 January 2010 to 'opt out' of being issued the ID card itself, even though their identity details will be entered on to the register."
This also implies that it's not only passport applicants who'll be made to give up this data, everyone who applies for, or renews a passport or other designated document

[Spandex]

He said it ensured that everyone who applied for a passport would have their biometric information placed on the register while it also alleviated the concerns of those who had argued the cards should not yet be compulsory.

See? ID cards aren't compulsory yet. It's only compulsory to give a DNA sample and have your finger prints and retina scanned. So that's alright then.

[kams]

do you think we'll have to get our willies measured?

[grobelaar]

It's the database that's the killer - not the stupid bit of plastic we do or do not have to carry - but I'm sure that fact will be lost on most people.

Still it leaves four years to raise protests up to the levels of pole tax riots. Some good tv dramas of people being accidentally disappeared in New Wave Fascist Britain....

[Loz]

Next week on Eastenders, Patrick Truman is misidentified as an Al-Qaeda suspect and sent off to Camp Delta in Cuba, never to be seen again.

[decadnids]

so much for "democracy" - more like a fucking de-mockery

if you havn't done already go here

http://www.no2id.net/

[Yer_Maw]

im only really bothered about paying, fucking rediculous however:

france

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41478000/jpg/_41478516_police_story_afp.jpg

uk

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41492000/jpg/_41492858_pickets_203_bbc.jpg

we are too 'british' for our own good, hence we get fucked over. The frecnch dont fuck about moaning, and its not even that bad a law (to anyone thats ever worked for an agency). the result? law probably will not go through.

read a letter in the paper today comparing striking bus drivers with a spoilt toddler. How much of a complete cunt do you have to be to believe that. how typically british.

[yenorom]

Whats the penalty for not having a card going to be?

[decadnids]

not sure - the say no to id cards site says its possible a 1000 pound fine.

i do care about id cards, i don't at all like the fact that the uk government has established a massive CCTV network, and are now planning to harvest biometric data on us. as Grob says its the database that freaks me out.

and the fact that people use the argument - oh well if you're not doing anything wrong then its ok - but its the fact that the government have already tried to get a bill passed that will allow them to change and make laws quicker, in effect re-writing stuff to suite them.

people think big brother is a tv show, and don't even realise that the uk is becoming a true orwellian nightmare!

[Yer_Maw]

its nothing to do with that, im sure ive said this before. Most other countries have them and these are the sorts of countries that take to the streets and actually make their voices heard. I just think its very british to grumble about this, going back and forth to the lords (and dont kid yourself on that they are doing htis for the good, they are shitting themselves that their time is nearly up and trying to sook up to the left), people rushing to get passports renewed. Ok its shit, but there a million other things that we are getting fucked over with (aka smoking you apathetic cunts) that have sailed through the lords without a snifter of an outrage from anyone. NIMBY.

[joe pinapples]

As a new citizen of Britishtainia I can say only one thing - if you dont like OUR weak-orange-squash elevensies, can't even cook bacon cuisine, apathetic selfish political beliefs and ability to hold complete morons in great public esteem than communist Vietnam might be more to your liking!

http://morpheus.cc/myworld/china/guilin/HO_CHI_MIN.JPG

[decadnids]

Yer_Maw, the difference is that a lot of other countries havn't got the infra-structure for a proper monitoring system set up. - the uk does. we have more cctv's than any other country in the world. and a lot of other countries don't have id cards with as much biometric information that the uk government is planning on harvesting off of us.

i personally will not be carrying an id card, and will get involved with protests regarding id cards. - personally, the smoking ban, yeah it infringes on people who want to smoke etc, but it isn't an issue that is close to my heart. - carrying id cards is.

at present if you're stopped by the police and asked your name and address you don't have to give it - with id cards - you will. i don't agree with that.

[yenorom]

When the technology improves I expect the cops to be carrying portable retina scanners so they don't even have to deal with forged cards. The cops have proposed plans to take dna scans of every newborn baby, have you ever seen the movie gattica?

[joe pinapples]

have you ever seen the movie gattica?

http://fusionanomaly.net/gattacauma.jpg

Its got Uma Thurman in it. I think she should always play genetic mutant-type of characters, then it will make sense that she has a blank face and can't seem to act at all naturally. Same goes for Jude Law who is, alas, also in the film.

[Yer_Maw]

regarding id cards. - personally, the smoking ban, yeah it infringes on people who want to smoke etc, but it isn't an issue that is close to my heart. - carrying id cards is.


Well thats my point exactly, leftie NIMBY. This is no dig, and im not saying im any better, I just think we are a bit embaressing as a country, the things we get our knickers in a twist over, how much people dont care as long as they get to do the school run - and then expect anyone to listen when something happens that does effect them. I think in the grand scheme of things id cards already exist really, and it is just more frightening (which it may well be) rather than anything new.

what we need is more riots, french style, with a little help from the top tunesmith. fnarrr.

http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/2002/101702/images/music2.jpg

[nikrem]

so much for "democracy" - more like a fucking de-mockery

http://www.no2id.net/

you should be on the radio with that type of stuff

[Spandex]

Some of us *do* protest.. write to our MPs.. sign petitions.. write to newspapers.. and are committed to avoiding ID cards even if it means breaking whatever laws get passed and testing these things in court.

The reason I don't do that about banning smoking IN PUBLIC PLACES is not cos I'm apathetic.. it's cos I've thought about it and I don't think it's ANYWHERE near as important. I might care if they were trying to ban people smoking altogether.. but they're not.

[decadnids]

Well thats my point exactly, leftie NIMBY. This is no dig, and im not saying im any better, I just think we are a bit embaressing as a country, the things we get our knickers in a twist over, how much people dont care as long as they get to do the school run

hmm - well in my past i have been quite active with regards to protesting etc.

leftie nimby, not really.

cheers.

[decadnids]

Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. — Herman Goering, President of Nazi Party and Commander of Luftwaffe, April 18, 1946


.......

[Loz]

you know, Croydon has more CCTV cameras in it than Manhatten.


As for the Goering quote, that's happening big style in the US, but in the UK, mainly the government are playing on our fears of IMMIGRANTS coming in and stealing our hard-earned giros. Only ID cards with a comprehensive biometric database to back it up will stop the ILLEGALS coming in and claiming housing benefit. You know, they put those asylum seekers in bed and breakfast hotels you know, the cheak of it! I mean they've just spent 2 weeks in a cargo container to get here, why can we just bung them all in jail? They're used to crampt conditions.

[julian]

Shit - looks like i might have just put my passport through the wash. Best get a new one.

Ill go pick up the forms today.

j


ps. any idea how long we have?

[JE:5]

I have till December 2007 to get my shizz together and flee this shit hole once and for all.

[decadnids]

Shit - looks like i might have just put my passport through the wash. Best get a new one.

Ill go pick up the forms today.

j

ps. any idea how long we have?

best get passport ASAP. - i think this year some biometric data will be on passports, and as from 2008 they will be collection the data that will be stored on the id database, and the option to get an id card. from 2010 - thats when the id card comes into law.

i've contacted my local no2id group and there is a talk by phil booth a week today, so i'll be popping along. jules if you're interested give us a bell.

from the no2id mailing list

Round one to the Government

The Government finally pushed through their ID Card Bill last Wednesday. The cave-in by the House of Lords was almost bound to happen at some point. It was a tragic day for democracy and civil liberty, but one for which NO2ID had braced itself for.

The last minute alterations to a House of Lords amendment means that anyone renewing their passport or any other ‘designated’ document will be compulsorily entered onto the National Identity Register.

The amendment means that individuals are able to opt not to receive a card until 1st January 2010 – but will still pay for one! Of course, any Lord who thought that this was a compromise had not understood the Bill. The problem has always been the database, not the card.

Our fight goes on and the battle (for them) is now for the compliance and the votes of millions, not just a few hundred Parliamentarians.

As the Home Office rounds us up and forces us to be fingerprinted, this will bring home to the public the true nature of the scheme. This is a policy that will be as damaging to the Government as the Poll Tax was to Margaret Thatcher.

Now, as well as exploiting the media, we take the Government on across the country and in the courts. We will win some battles, we will lose others - but in the end we will win.

[julian]

i've contacted my local no2id group and there is a talk by phil booth a week today, so i'll be popping along. jules if you're interested give us a bell.
t

Im actually abroad next week, checking out the possibility of emigrating.

I cant deny, my incentive is largely financial, but this whole shit certainly contributes.

The poll tax - i dont think there will be anything like the same objection to id cards / data harvesting. It can be implamented in a far more underhand way.

Poll tax riots were about money. That generally gets people fired up way more than principles alone.

[joe pinapples]

i'm applying for my passporta next week ! no biometric retina tinfoil hats for me.

[c s]

ok now could someone explain something to me i never quite understood: you people in the uk seem to have very little problems with hundreds of thousands of cameras that are always watching you anywhere. what's the general problem with carrying an id card (except for the biometric, rfid stuff of course)? carrying an id card concealed in your purse reveals far less about your life than all those cameras... (unless, as i said, rfid chips are inside) and if police grab you, i guess there are surely more than enough laws already that allow them to find out who you are even without the card, no?

[Spandex]

ok now could someone explain something to me i never quite understood: you people in the uk seem to have very little problems with hundreds of thousands of cameras that are always watching you anywhere.

I don't think that's true.

what's the general problem with carrying an id card (except for the biometric, rfid stuff of course)?

The UK ID card *does* have biometrics etc :) I have a problem with them anyway... and I don't think that just because some countries have them they must be ok. Essentially they're a device to enable the state to monitor and control the people. They shift the onus onto the people to "prove you're a good citizen and are allowed to be standing here".

carrying an id card concealed in your purse reveals far less about your life than all those cameras... (unless, as i said, rfid chips are inside) and if police grab you, i guess there are surely more than enough laws already that allow them to find out who you are even without the card, no?

Not really. Not if you've not done anything. If you've just murdered someone, they're going to find out who you are anyway, as they should. If you just happen to "look suspicious" but haven't done anything they can lock you away for (yet) then ID cards enable them to harass you more efficiently. Experience has shown that "looking suspicious" can range from "being the wrong colour" or "wearing the wrong clothes" to "disagreeing with the government".

That's the bottom line. ID cards don't help prevent crime or solve crime. So you have to ask "what do they REALLY want them for?". You're left with 2 possibilities as far as I can see.. 1) to control the people. 2) to make profit for the companies implementing them. I think it's mostly 1 with a bit of 2 greasing the wheels.

[leatherface]

spot on spandex YOU THE MAN!

[grobelaar]

read a letter in the paper today comparing striking bus drivers with a spoilt toddler. How much of a complete cunt do you have to be to believe that. how typically british.

It doesn't help that every single strike in this country is turned on by the media and they don't do anything but portray the strikers as troublemakers stopping people going about their business.

No one seems to be able to see as far as the bosses, maangers and capitalist are stopping people from going about their day by continually ripping off their employees.

Personally I've never been that bothered about the anti-capitalist stuff, but these ID cards - I reckon a good proper bit of protesting and rioting could be in order...

Welcome to Fascist Britain

[decadnids]

ok now could someone explain something to me i never quite understood: you people in the uk seem to have very little problems with hundreds of thousands of cameras that are always watching you anywhere.

actually, some of us do have problems with that.

especially now they are brining in id cards..

the uk government as of this year will be logging and keeping for up to 2 years car journeys made, as the network of camera's on the roads have now been fitted out with number plate recognition..

the worrying thing is - that the uk cctv network is in place, get peoples id cards sorted, face recognition, tracking systems. -then we're properly screwed.

the cctv's went in with out any form of public debate, discussion.

the first i recall of finding out about them was probably back in 96 or so when i saw a big poster like this...

http://www.sussex.police.uk/about_us/annual_report/images/smile.jpg

[decadnids]

Personally I've never been that bothered about the anti-capitalist stuff, but these ID cards - I reckon a good proper bit of protesting and rioting could be in order...

Welcome to Fascist Britain

agreed (well actually i am not that into capitalism...) - like the Criminal Justice Bill Demo's / Protest, i plan on getting involved regarding ID cards.

[julian]

you people in the uk seem to have very little problems with hundreds of thousands of cameras that are always watching you anywhere. what's the general problem with carrying an id card

people only notice stuff when theres a jump in whats going on. when things slide in gradually, noone protests. the cameras have slid in gently. the id cards are a jump.

which, incidently, is being smoothed with the passport changes

[leatherface]

people only notice stuff when theres a jump in whats going on. when things slide in gradually, noone protests. the penises have slid in gently. the id cards are a jump.

which, incidently, is being smoothed with the passport changeslol

[c s]

people only notice stuff when theres a jump in whats going on. when things slide in gradually, noone protests. the cameras have slid in gently. the id cards are a jump.

that's it - it's the other way round here, they're doing their best to place only 5 new cameras per month... just for security purposes of course. but while they're already there... what about lazy pupils spending a day off school? what about number plate recognition for insurance companies?

once the infrastructure is there, it will be abused for other purposes, no doubt.

[garew]

So true Julian. The gradually boiling the frog theory.

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

The CCTV cameras in coventry city centre were actually a pretty positive thing.. I used to spend a lot of time skateboarding in the city at night and Coventry has always had a violent reputation in the past. A few times we saw unfortunate people getting their heads kicked in and the police would be there in 3 mins. It did make it a lot safer. The police never told us to go skate somewhere else either so the cameras didn't really change what we did.

[penciLneck]

what next?

http://www.mobilegazette.com/uk-gsm-0604x01.htm

[V Knid esq]

The CCTV cameras in coventry city centre were actually a pretty positive thing.. I used to spend a lot of time skateboarding in the city at night and Coventry has always had a violent reputation in the past. A few times we saw unfortunate people getting their heads kicked in and the police would be there in 3 mins. It did make it a lot safer. The police never told us to go skate somewhere else either so the cameras didn't really change what we did.

Yep... though a few people might oppose CCTV, you talk to the average person on a Peckham estate about whether they're bothered about being watched vs the fact that it cuts violence and they'll laugh in your face.

Obv if the govt REALLY want to cut violence really drastically they'd fully legalise the prescribing of hard drugs to addicts, but that would be too easy.

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

Aye.. Of course, like people have already said, CCTV can be abused but it does also have a big positive side to it. Whereas ID cards are clearly very limited in their usefullness and stupidly expensive.

[V Knid esq]

Aye.. Of course, like people have already said, CCTV can be abused but it does also have a big positive side to it. Whereas ID cards are clearly very limited in their usefullness and stupidly expensive.


Not just limited in their usefulness - actually counter-productive. As I've said in previous threads on this topic, my experience of working with the NHS computer system - currently the biggest single network in the country - has absolutely 100% convinced me that there is no way on earth the ID card system will be secure and failsafe... now the NHS system is held together, just about, by huge amounts of goodwill - it's in everyone's vested interests for the cracks to be patched and it to be kept working... ID cards, however, will be hacked by every organized crime group with half a brain to rub together - I have no doubt at all about this. It might stop a few lone loony terrorists and petty crims but as far as the real badboys are concerned it's an absolute dream.

[c s]

The next logical step will be prohibiting the encryption of private messages (phone, mail etc.) I think. EU just decided to store connection data for a year or so. Of course they know already now that real terrorists/criminals are clever enough use encryption, so the measure is definitely not against them, it's to provide infrastrcture for the surveillance of the whole population - for any reason. I bet in 1 year or so they will "suddenly realise" that it's all no good against professionals, so encryption (or scrambling of phone lines) will have to be made illegal...

even CCTV didn't prevent the attacks in london btw - suicide bombers cannot be stopped by any type of sanctions, nothing new really.

[Davenport]

For those interested, the LSE report on the UK Id cards proposal is here: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndInformationOffice/newsAndEvents/archives/2005/IDCard_FinalReport.htm
In addition to a critique, it has a couple of very interesting sections (18 & 19) towards the end proposing an alternative solution that could do with some analysis itself...

[M H]

Fuck it then that gives me five years to get the hell out of this shithole on my non-biometric passport.

You still need a passport if you are out of the country, in fact you ESPECIALLY need a passport if you are in any other country other than the UK, as in most countries you have to carry a passport/I.D. card by law.. Ok, you might have 5 years to get out of the country, but you are going to need another 7 before you can become a citizen of another E.U. country (that's how it is here in germany anyway), and under german law, it's compulsary to have an I.D. card.. I'm thinking if I'm still here in 5 1/2 more years I might give up my UK passport for a german one if their I.D. cards are cheaper, although I hate to say it but all this Biometric crap is par for the course across the world, and I find it very doubtfull anything is going to change that sadly... become a citizen of some banana republic maybe??

[joe pinapples]

There has been accusations that this site is becomming a 2nd rate Boingboing rip-off, so heres another cut and paste of an interesting article :!

"National Information Registry"
So adding it all up, from NIR Day 1 for ten years you've got to keep processing people at the rate of 50 per hour at every centre, or one every 72 seconds, each of whom requires a scan of the whole central NIR to avoid multiple registrations, so the database has to be up and accessible every minute of the day to avoid delay. In the early days it's a nailed on certainty that we'll get failures, resulting in potentially hundreds of people making pointless journeys (say it's down for an hour during a particular day - that's 50 people at each centre having their time wasted, a total of 3500 people). I have no idea of the MTBF for major government IT projects, and they almost certainly won't tell me on the usual 'commercial confidentiality' grounds. What I can do is provide some figures based on possible percentage reliability and estimate the number of people inconvenienced per year and the kind of reliability that would be required *from day one* to stop the scheme sliding into chaos.

sounds like british beaurocracy at its very best - it wont work, its stupid but since the whole shebang has been set into motion its defos gonna happen. Huzzah for idiocy!

[decadnids]

it's gonna be a big balls up for sure.

regarding CCTV's - yup i am aware that they can help for sure, in certain areas... but the amount of CCTV's that have been installed is a crazy number.

[kams]

my experience of working with the NHS computer system - currently the biggest single network in the country - has absolutely 100% convinced me that there is no way on earth the ID card system will be secure and failsafe...

agreed

[kams]

it's gonna be a big balls up for sure.

regarding CCTV's - yup i am aware that they can help for sure, in certain areas... but the amount of CCTV's that have been installed is a crazy number.

It does help, definately. The amount, and fear, of crime on the estate I work on in Brixton has dropped massively since the CCTV was put in.

I think its been used as evidence in maybe two or three court cases. In terms of surveillance they police dont seem to have the time or resources to use it effectively (by that I mean staking people out - although they've tried, not much useful evidence is got from CCTV it seems) It works first and foremost as a detterent.

I know the bloke who operates the CCTV, I used to sit and smoke fags/have lunch with him etc. He did know the wierdest things about you.. he rang me at my desk just as I got in one morning to tell me I'd dropped my glove about 1/4 mile down the road! He's hired by some two-bit security firm - who TBH we're just a bunch of unorganised ex-army hard cunts - they'd often fuck up and leave people on shift for 16 hours - staring at monitors.. which is slightly worrying.

[JonnySpeed]

I only got my passport renewed recently, so I'll be one of the last people in the country to be forced to have an ID card. Hooray!

my renewal is 2009 - so I'll have another 10 years aftter that before I'm forced to have one - but tbh, it will be well robocop and difficult to get shit without one when they come in. People will expect you to have one and suspect you for not wanting/having one.