more drum help please!

[piscaries]

this is an issue that has really been bugging me and i've been trying to figure out the best way to get my drum sounds the way i want. i need a drum machine that will allow me to create the sounds from the ground up or at least let me edit the hell out of the supplied basic waveforms. my next requirement is that it lets me either step-write or play in hits manually. i really don't care whether i go hardware or software based, but those are my main requirements. i've been playing with my friends machinedrum and i am absolutely in love with it, however the price tag is awfully large. i've looked closely at the waldorf attack (both vst and hardware), the jomox airbase 09, and the machinedrum (i can dream, right?). The problem with those racks is that they don't have sequencers. So that means I now have to look for a hardware or software sequencer. but i've been having trouble finding a dedicated drum software sequencing program for the mac that will let me step-sequence or play in real time. i'm open to any suggestions on any combination of hardware and software. basically: how can i get the functionality of the machinedrum without the cost of the machinedrum... or am i just forced to save all my pennies and buy a machinedrum? HELP!

[r_v]

If you want to go the hardware route but can't afford machinedrum (who can?), I'd suggest getting a rack drum module (from what I've read, the Waldorf Attack seems to be the best for tweakability) and a cheap drum sequencer.

The Roland TR-626 makes a pretty good drum sequencer. Its built in sounds are horrible (unless you like that sort of thing) but the sequencer is pretty good. You get the Roland x0x interface and you can assign the pads to any MIDI note.

[piscaries]

i've had a 626... and it's alright. but the sequencer isn't really flexible enough for me, and i also feel that the quantization on the 626 is very stale. i'm also trying to get something that will allow me sequence more than just notes... something that will track velocity or modulation for lfo's. i've currently got a yamaha rx5, but i really really hate the interface on that as well, and that's why i'm getting rid of it. i was originally going to use the rx5 to sequence say the waldorf attack.. but as i just said the interface is ass and it really inhibits the creative process. the waldorf attack does seem to be the most appealing hardware drum piece, though... seems much more flexible than the airbase.

[anarchosyn]

Midi control the rack beat boxes with a cheap, and used, electribe drum box from korg.


ta-da.. problem solved ;)..

btw- my main advise is to save the cash and just use samples, as these are WAY more flexible then anything else (if you doubt me, just play with reaktor's granu / resynth modules setup to be triggered like a drum machine - not to mention you can edit the sounds further in programs like bias peak). I'd personally pick up a used imac, a copy of reaktor and an electribe to work exclusively as one beat box.. but that's me.

[c s]

what's so special about this machinedrum thing?

[Triptonizer]

http://www.machinedrum.com/

you gotta admit it looks cool :)

And I have been asking exactly the same question as Piscaries, haven't found a satisfying solution though. I would like to trigger soft sampler drumsounds with some kind of hardware interface/sequencer -- drumbox style, but instead of an electribe I have been considering a Roland R8 (velocity sensitive pads, swing...).

[c s]

Originally posted by Triptonizer
http://www.machinedrum.com/
you gotta admit it looks cool :)

yeah i checked it but being the rational guy i am ;) i read the specs and thought "hmm, but why so expensive?"

[r_v]

if you'rew building drums from scratch, machinedrum seems to be the way to go. i've never used machinedrum but i heard some samples and the specs look pretty impressive. you guys are right about the price though. i'd definately buy a cut down, rack mount machinedrum with no sequencer if it were available. using samples is perfectly valid though.

i use an mpc2000 for all my drums. i create the sounds using a nord micro modular or some freeware software tools (stomper, drumsynth etc) then sample them into the mpc. i get all the flexability of a good drum synth with one of the best hardware sequencers.

the er1 electribe is great. i used to have one and the sequencer is fantastic for creating patterns. i got rid of it coz the sampled sounds (hats and claps) were'nt that flexible. the drum synth sounds were pretty good though. i kinda wish i'd held onto it now...

[piscaries]

Originally posted by anarchosyn
btw- my main advise is to save the cash and just use samples, as these are WAY more flexible then anything else

a while ago i was using a sampler as my drum machine.. but as a hardware sampler there wasn't much flexibility aside from basic effects and filters. i'm sure reaktor has much more editability but i've never used it before. i don't mind samples for drum sounds, but i'm really into the analog type sounds. not the bass in your face x0x-type analog sounds (which are still good every now and then), but the lighter kicks and pitters and patters. as far as the electribe thing... i completely forgot about that thing! the interface is pretty damn easy too... but i'd really like to look more into the reaktor thing you were talking about. however i think getting another computer is fairly out of the question. i just got a g4 powerbook and i'm using logic as my sequencer. would i be able to run logic as a main sequencer and still have the electribe firing off sequences back into the computer to reaktor? or is there a step sequencer plug-in that i could use coupled with reaktor... well.. since reaktor sounds pretty powerful and seems similar to the nord modular architecture, could i assume that there are even step sequencers in reaktor? i'm off to the NI website..... thanks for the ideas!

(sorry for the rambling flow-of-thought)

[anarchosyn]

Originally posted by piscaries


the interface is pretty damn easy too... but i'd really like to look more into the reaktor thing you were talking about. however i think getting another computer is fairly out of the question. i just got a g4 powerbook and i'm using logic as my sequencer. would i be able to run logic as a main sequencer and still have the electribe firing off sequences back into the computer to reaktor?

yes, quite definitely. Logic rocks for this kind of thing, but isn't very user friendly from what I've read (i'm a cubaser who will be going logic next month when v6 ships).


or is there a step sequencer plug-in that i could use coupled with
reaktor... well.. since reaktor sounds pretty powerful and seems similar to the nord modular architecture, could i assume that there are even step sequencers in reaktor? i'm off to the NI website..... thanks for the ideas!


well, reaktor v4 will be osx compatible AND ship with AU support (the new osx plugin format that logic 6 has decided to ONLY accept). Reaktor 3.05 is VST compatible, so you can load reaktor in as a VSTI or VST effect and trigger it (and mix it) within logic. I've heard that the VST implimentation of logic was never that great though.. I'd wait for the AU version to ship this spring.

word to the wise-->
Reaktor isn't that user friendly.. it's far tougher then the nord, but isn't quite as steep as max-msp. It takes getting used to, but it's worth it when you do (i HATED it for several years after first touching the interface). It's a lot harder to just 'noodle around' like you can with the nord. You really need to understand what you're doing to a larger degree. But it allows for some really system intensive modularizations (i.e. granular modules, table lookup data, samples, etc).

as to the step sequencers, yes.. reaktor does have those. More to the point, reaktor is a lower level modular synthesis program then the nord in that it gives you the tools to build anything you can image right out of the box (i.e. it has three levels of 'modules'.. it allows you to crack open almost any functional module and play with its constituent parts).

would you like me to elaborate on the specific ins and outs of the sequencer modules given ?

[piscaries]

@anarchosyn
if you (and your fingers) don't mind.. that would be very cool. i don't need a super in-depth analysis or anything like that. it would be really nice to hear your take on it (from what i've read of all your posts, you know what the hell you're doing and i really respect your opinions).

[darnymarfy]

how old are you all? i'm 19/20 and have just started twiddling with reaktor - i don't know whether i can be bothered hurting my brain trying to figure it out at the moment.

[anarchosyn]

Alright, I'd be more then happy to elaborate on the basic structures to the best of my ability (i would have done it earlier but I had to watch Natural Born Killers ;)).

It may shock you to know that reaktor, for all our talk, only has 8 different sampler modules:


basic sampler
basic sampler with FM
Looper
Resynth
Graincloud
sample lookup
beat looper


The basic samplers are just that, very basic. They have a single output for audio, and only three inputs-- one for amplitude, one for pitch and one for trigger (which retriggers on each gate value).

Ironically, this is the sampler I find myself using the most (mainly because I consider myself a reaktor novice, and because--inspite of the stripped down parameter set, it's quite the powerhouse). Depending on how you build the pitch interface, you can make some interesting sounds. Static samples come alive when you run a slight amount of pitch modulation (via an internal sequencer or the keyboard) through a portamento device. I have found myself, when feeling in a particulary 'twerkish' mood, setting up drums under midi control and then building internal sequencers that would transmit slight pitch fluxuations per step in a continuous and unabaited midi synched cycle (sometimes i'd construct multiple sequencers divided by a midi controlled switch to change the effect a bit). so, depending on when I bang the drum (via midi controller or in my cubase sequence) I sometimes get some cool timbre changes that I wouldn't expect (i.e. getting one sound to feel like many).

Run just 3 drums programmed like this with a very shufflie and stumbly sequence and you've got some funky stuff indeed.

of course, This isn't even factoring in what we can do to the sound AFTER it leaves the output of the module (like, for example, switch the samples routing, via cc messages, through multiple different channels of modulation and effexing, granular delays, regular delays, ring mods, etc... or, even nordish effex like crossfade routing controlled via an LFO through those aformentioned routes).

A detailed examination of all the possibilities looks to be a bit to convoluted for me to continue, module by module, but suffice to say (as one goes up the scale of modules) new ins and outs start making appearences. Stuff like sample speed controls (realtime time stretching), frequency modulation inputs, sample length outputs (i.e. outputs that expresses a number value equal to the exact length of your sample in ms as a constant). loop length, loop start point selectors, sample selectors (so multiple samples can reside in the same module, and even the same key), formant shift controls, pan, etc. I won't even touch the graincloud module, you can scope that out a bit via the tutorial at NI's site (check 'support-tutorials-reaktor-graincloud').

Anyhow.. I need to become john malkovich.

(btw - my eyes hurt, I'm sick and feeling down, so disregard any spelling issues you might find.. bugger it all for all I care.)

;)

[edit: I guess I should add for clarity's sake, the sample lookup module outputs the value of sample's waveform based on the value at the Position input, so it's basically a wavetable osc if the right signals are fed into it].

[anarchosyn]

Originally posted by darnymarfy
how old are you all? i'm 19/20 and have just started twiddling with reaktor - i don't know whether i can be bothered hurting my brain trying to figure it out at the moment.

Don't be bothered, but it'll be your loss.

btw- I'm 25.

[Triptonizer]

just to add a couple of things to Anarchosyn's excellent exposé :):

Reaktor is also very capable of emulating analog drum sounds (i.e. not using samplers but oscillators), and what's more there are some great ensembles for that in the library, so you don't need to start building them from scratch (Drummatik designed by Analog-X beats Waldorf Attack any time, and all the sounds are highly editable even if you don't dig into the structure and just use the panel knobs);

as to the internal step sequencers: I've built several myself, but I'd still go for hardware: filling in sounds with the mouse can't really replace banging pads can it? moreover, when you try playing step sequencers in Cubase, you'll have a hard time getting them to reset exactly where you want, each pattern is a snapshot (Reaktor speak for MIDI program), so you have to draw a control change for each pattern change... all rather messy and less than satisfactory I find.

[piscaries]

thanks for the overview guys. very much appreciated. looks like i'll be doing some serious investigation of reaktor...

you guys rock! :)

[darnymarfy]

actually that has helped to order my thoughts on the subject.

[c s]

Originally posted by Triptonizer
as to the internal step sequencers: I've built several myself, but I'd still go for hardware: filling in sounds with the mouse can't really replace banging pads can it?

true, this is the only thing i don't like about playing live with reaktor. i'm waiting for a hardware controller for this issue cause knobs & faders don't make much sense. but this reminds me of i had the idea of trying to realise this with a keyboard's keys - toggle buttons triggered by a certain note number only. would be better than nothing, no?

moreover, when you try playing step sequencers in Cubase, you'll have a hard time getting them to reset exactly where you want, each pattern is a snapshot

hmm, but why trigger drum sequence snapshots from cubase if you can create the patterns in cubase itself?

[Triptonizer]

Originally posted by c s


hmm, but why trigger drum sequence snapshots from cubase if you can create the patterns in cubase itself?

table files are sexier lol

seriously: for one reason, i like to work with patterns of various lengths (16/20/24 steps e.g.), and in cubase that means copy/paste, calculating how many repetitions before they coincide again etc. etc.

[anarchosyn]

Originally posted by darnymarfy
actually that has helped to order my thoughts on the subject.

Cool, glad I could help.. seriously though, I had some weird idea I'd be breaking down EACH of the 8 modules when I started that.. hehe, was I biting off more then I could chew (hell, I haven't even USED all 8 modules yet ;)).

Keep in mind though, with reaktor you can put almost anykind of input into a module. Plug knobs, faders, sequencer outs, lfos, crossfaded cv data, table data, midi data .. etc..

The ins and outs are there, it's up to you to figure out how to use them.

=)

[piscaries]

is it safe to assume that i can assign midi cc's to various knobs/faders/etc? i'm trying to see if i can set up generic knob sets on my nord modular to control reaktor.

[Triptonizer]

each panel object can be controlled by a midi cc, you can set the assignments freely in reaktor; I regularily use the NM knobs for that purpose. If you want you can even have 4 sets of cc assignments, 1 for each NM slot, for a total of 72 remotes :)

[piscaries]

yay! sounds like i have a whole new world to explore now!

[c s]

Originally posted by Triptonizer
table files are sexier lol


hmm ok, convincing... lol

i like to work with patterns of various lengths (16/20/24 steps e.g.), and in cubase that means copy/paste, calculating how many repetitions before they coincide again etc. etc.

hmm just press strg-d and get as many copies as you want?

[pille'ocheoni]

im 49 so dont be worried