Mp3 , Vinyl , and losing it all [Archive]

20th January 2003, 09:39

Originally posted by MUX
im glad to hear it will have a cd release and was a bit dissapointed it wasnt around in the first place.. but surely more than understandable in the mp3 situation......
i had a certain cd recently that had a very good copy protection on it that prevented to be played on a computer in the first place.. im sure there are many ways around that but hey.. it's a good start and will at least prevent any kid to copy the cd for the rest of the mates

MUX , I'm interested in knowing more about that... ! What is the technology?

As we have discussed before on this forum , I'm into the idea of mp3 , it is convenient and makes music libraries a lot more portable - I'm not into people downloading entire back catalogues by artists that interest them, and then 'forgetting' that we need to sell records to LIVE ... If we can't sell music , we can't make music - very fucking simple... And for comparitively low selling artists such as myself and Super_Collider , to lose a large proportion of sales due to Mp3 'convenience', is a devastatingly bad return on a huge investment in personal time and money... So , yes , the vinyl only release was an attempt to combat the 'lazy' crew - as I knew that a lot of Mp3 users don't know how , or can't be bothered, to convert vinyl to Mp3 , as the process is a bit more convoluted - in fact its probably easier to go out and buy it... that was the psychology behind the vinyl only release of Tresor156 anyway - but of course ,,, you can only sell a certain amount of vinyl , because most people have ditched their turntables and some even CD players , and only survive on downloaded/pirated Mp3s .... ( @ Weishaupt - I see that you are posting commercially released Mp3s by BOC and Kid606 to our FTP - I'm not down with you or other crew doing that here, BTW... but , hey, its a personal moral decision - the shit can be gotten anywhere on the web...)

old skool

20th January 2003, 09:50

I can't be arsed with MP3's most of the time. I'd prefer to buy the original, as I like to have the inlay with all the bits and bobs and who produced what listed on it .... just the trainspotter in me I suppose.

MP3's / copying cd's are a good way to hear new music, but if I really like the album then I'll buy the original.

owain_k

20th January 2003, 10:29

Do people not find a difference in quality between MP3 & CD or am I really being overly fussy.......?

Personally, vinyl is still my favourite medium coz you can really smell it..............

In the whole MP3 download scenario though, it is very interesting to hear Christian's P.O.V. in this matter as a lot is being made of this at the moment (have read alot in the press). Whilst "platinum" type pop-artists seem to be endorsing MP3 as an extra means of promotion, smaller outfits do seem to be actively loosing out....not good !

However, as a shopper myself, I have heard bits of things I like on download and then gone out and bought the proper CD, ain't nout like owning a new record is there ?

gunjack

20th January 2003, 10:37

gotta agree with cristian on this one. mp3s are ok for personal portable trax but sharing mp3s of material which is on sale at the moment is taking the food right out of my mouth.

lets keep the ftp for unreleased works by boarders, ok weishapt old buddy?:D

Ruben A

20th January 2003, 11:00

Originally posted by owain_k
Do people not find a difference in quality between MP3 & CD or am I really being overly fussy.......?

I do. The diffenrence in soundquality can be hard to hear - but technically theres is huge difference.
Mp3 was born for the net - not meant as replacement of both CD´s and vinyl media. Though, I like the idea of downloading things I never would have been able to hear - like the NF-FTP idea.
Instincly going for complete "cracked" albums available on the net sucks big time.
Some say that it´s the music that counts, not the cover and stuff...
Personally I prefere original copies, with booklet and CD... It´s a complete product and I know artists works very hard with this point as much as the music, right? fx. the S_C releases?

hrmhmmhrrr..

A kind of a-never-ending-discussion...

:!

actionjetzon

20th January 2003, 11:02

right old skool, me too!
the web is cool to check stuff out, but i prefer always tracks on vinyl...
I really thought much about putting my tracks in the web/that ftp, and don´t know really if its good or not. Maybee wouldn´t such many people buy the vinyl if its going to be released whwn they have the track as mp3.
But otherwise is that a good advertising, and people would buy just of that case...
what ya think

alex cortex

20th January 2003, 11:14

Originally posted by cristian

...as I knew that a lot of Mp3 users don't know how , or can't be bothered, to convert vinyl to Mp3 , as the process is a bit more convoluted - in fact its probably easier to go out and buy it...

cristian, just a few days after the release of one of my recent records it was all on soulseek. that it sold about 1000 times in the shops is pure luck i´d say. it just needs few nerds copying from vinyl to mp3 to prevent a record to be sold.

arar

20th January 2003, 11:33

Vinyl only is a good way of ensuring that people pay for music, especially at the unit volumes we are talking about here....Im completely turned off by mp3 DJing..I just dont find it any fun to do (and Ive got a lot of vinyl I could convert).....on the other hand, using something like Live! to play stuff youve actually written yourself seems completely different! If I ever get anything out on vinyl Im sure Ill enjoy playing that to....Im not sure I trust the whole MP3 thing...who's behind mp3..its not open source type stuff as Ive been told org vorbis is...

MUX

20th January 2003, 11:47

the cd i came across was this years I Love Techno official cd.
ill try to get it back to see what the technololgy was called and sure that it was clearly stated at the back that it could only be played on hi-fi's. ( it contained a thin black line on the outer part of the cd )

but i consider this ' if it was good, i will buy it '
i am very pro-mp3 considering my positioning.. being here,
i cant walk out to the record store and buy a record.. (and the only record shop on the island is now my design office) but hey.. i dont go out and buy what ever i download cuse the situation is not like that..
i run an ftp mp3 server with a friend, but i never came posting that here, beceause i have 5-10 users that upload new music and that have very similar tastes to i dont even need to download in many cases cause it's already there..and i cant be greedy with the world if it aint offering to be so.. i am very against abuse and like to collect rarities that i know i could never have.. even if i wanted to .. for example The Mask 500 Series.. records swap at up to 100 quid on ebay... and dammit... it only a damn record.. and it aint gona save your life.. but hey! a listen wouldnt hurt if i cant buy it
and well, i go check the uploads.. and for example find a Kid Kaola release.. i might give it a couple of listens but it aint gonna hurt if i burn it wth the rest of the kid koala stuff on the cd on the shelve becuase.. mabye i will go looking for it after reading a rave review on the Wire in a couple of years.. which is what usually happens

so hey, 'MUX is a downloing mp3 sharing twat?' no i aint at all. i am a music lover that needs food for thought.
How on earth can i milk a cow when theres no cow to milk? dont consider all this as an excuse .. if i was could i would buy.. and when im abroad i always do.. but sometimes it makes more than i cd to make me buy it.. like for example the last cd i ought was BOC geogaddi.. yes i had the album 2 pre-release and i went and bought it anyway because it came it a child storybook format with wunderful pictures and a reasonable pricetag. same thing goes to Radiohead Kid A.. japanese bok release.. it amazing..
the box i have my head-on release aint like on of my friends.. min is also a cardboad fold in cover .. his is normal transparent cd box..
distribution 'problem' guess
so.. the actual traditional cd box does me off a bit as well.. to say the truth

hope i made my point and was helpfull.. and u all now know me more

wheezer

20th January 2003, 12:29

cristian for all things pertaining to cd's, mp3s, riaa & copyright check out <a href="http://slashdot.org/search.pl?topic=141">this section</a> at slashdot.org, I know that there's been a couple of cd copy-protection mechanisms already, some of which even damaged certain cd-players under certain circumstances!

personally, I'm in a similar situation as MUX is - with a population of 5000000 people in total, Finland does have a couple of record stores, and some will even order me stuff, but the selection pales in comparison to say any major German city, and thanks to my tastes being somewhat marginal, shop owners aren't that enthused about ordering - thus before ordering some album or ep, it has become a viable pre-listening technique for me to check soulseek et al - sure, there's a lot of online shops by now that allow listening of samples online, and I visit those as well, but especially for listening-material (as opposed to "DJ tools"), some 30 second excerpt just isn't going to cut it. this goes doubly for any possible ebay purchases, where a single record can carry quite a hefty pricetag.

funny that boc is mentioned again, I remembered reading a record review of "Music has a right..." when it came out, and since it was very positive, I decided to check it out a local record shop. I quickly skipped through the record, and didn't really like it, so I left it in the shop. 2 or so years later, I stumbled across the album in MP3 format, decided to download it, burned it, and had a couple of listens to it - it was wonderful! The next time I came across a vinyl copy (it was a repress I picked up over at Optimal records in Munich 2 summers ago I believe), I bought it. This type of thing has happened to me quite a few times by now, and out of print material is likely to reside on my hard disc for years until I can get my grubby hands on a real, physical copy.

Really this is what makes mp3s great in my eyes; I can check out whole musical scenes, decide if I like them, and THEN invest my hard-earned cash - for example this summer I had some interest in reggae, and not knowing where to start, I managed to find a 4 cd reggae compilation on soulseek - now I know a couple of artists I like and can do some way better educated record shopping, the end result being that both artists and consumer are happier.

I think aside from the fact that recording vinyl to mp3 is somewhat hard(although with the right soundcard and the right software, it really isn't, there's wizards that'll guide you through the whole thing step by step and even apply some filters to "clean up" the vinyl cracks & pops), Dungeon Master for example is really more of a tool record, something you spin at a strobe/smoke-filled party! On a German forum some time ago Zombie Nation's Splank! had a big cow about FinalScratch and how that was going to "destroy small labels", but I don't just (yet) see it happening - there's too much prestige attached to owning certain records (or even the promo versions of certain records :) ), too many other values that you cannot replace for a DJ in mp3 format!

Similarly, this is where I think the big labels are going wrong - there was a article on Salon.com a while ago about who major label execs considered to be the highest cash cows for the next 10 years or so, and the interpolated top 10 consisted mostly of the Beatles and that kind of older stuff. Today, checking the Finnish album top ten in my daily newspaper, f*cking Elvis is still going strong after god knows how many weeks in the top 10 with his Greatest Hits Album - and strictly speaking, that's not even a album! This is so, imho, because nowadays there's more and more of the good ol' bubblegum pop being produced that supposedly began in the 70ies with "pop music" and the like - acts like B.Spears, Aguilera etc. just have less artistic value than even Ringo Starr's leftmost toe! I'm simply not surprised that the "common music listener" is not feeling particularly bad replacing his Britney Spears CD with 70 mb of mp3s...

Btw, I expect the film industry to be next...

Weishaupt

20th January 2003, 12:34

ok guys, i understand your positions................
i agree with you gunjack...............
i thought, it is a cool thing, to trade some shit, i understand you, sure..........it is not so good for your releases like alex cortex singing, ok.............i dont thought about that cos i havnt a own release and i havnt this experience.
and cristian.............i dont think, that you are query my moral .... i agree with you..........

pille'ocheoni

20th January 2003, 12:43

i only plan to post my personal songs.

goinz

20th January 2003, 13:01

Ok is, checking new stuff with mp3 and off course to buy the releases at vinyl or cd, later. I think that we all have to buy the original Releases and we can also put it on our PC to listen to it, for our selfes only! The None Comercial way. I hate the bullshit mp3 change toolz like Kazaa or anything else. I have also a Problem to give mp3's another people of my bought cd's or vinyl's collection. People have to buy the music they want to listen to.

Cristian is right we give our Future away, if we all don't buy the releases of our favorite Artists.

Peace
and get the records

deccard

20th January 2003, 13:08

cd-protection works only for people who don´t know how to use a good cd-burningprogram.
i bought once a cd with a protection which doesn´t play at my office-mac and i had to make a copy to listen to it at work.
a friend of mine doesn´t have any cd-player and only uses his pc and he can´t listen to the music at home nor at his office.
i think this can´t really be the future of cd´s.

@wheezer: hm i guess that in the future more dj´s will use final scratch. vinyl is expensive and a group of people with final scratch can save a lot of money.
if you look at smaller dj´s who spend 200-400 euros every month for records and don´t get the money in from spinning how should they survive? the places to play and get money are getting rare and with "underground" parties you really can´t finance that every month.

DsD

20th January 2003, 13:59

u talke about releases that people download but what do u think about downloading dj sets and live acts?

piscaries

20th January 2003, 14:04

when it all boils down, if you can hear it, you can copy it. there's always going to be people out there that just want to download and share the music without ever giving thought to the artists. so... what happens you you tease these people? i was doing some thinking, and this is what i came up with: rip your own super low quality mp3's and just make sure you get a lot of them out just before you release a cd on the p2p servers. in my opinion, this will make them interested in the music, and if all they can find are your low quality copies then maybe they'll want to go buy the high quality cd's for themselves... it sounds kind of dumb but i think a tactic like this could work.

wired

20th January 2003, 14:25

i don't like filesharing sites on the web. i know, when i put my collection online, half of the world would have it ;-) (i record every vinyl i get on pc, just to make my own compilations for my car)
if i give away some mp3s, i give it to very good friends and no other, and the best of them i keep myself...
for the cd copy protection... nothing that gives away any sound couldn't replicated... my brother tryed much with copy protections... he got one which he couldn't crack, and i put it on my cd-player, recorded it with 256kbps and cut the tracks... ready...
another one he couldn't crack... i put into my cd burner (a very good yamaha f1) which takes every cd... copied...
but i don't copy rare stuff... my brother listens to "normal" pop music... i think copy one of their cds is no loose for them... with the prices for a cd here in germany (up to 20-25euro) its no wonder that people copy cds...
however... i like vinyls, and i like to buy them because i know that the djs behind them need the money... and vinyls couldn't be copied easily...
@dsd: hehe... i think it's ok when giving away dj sets and livesets... but not to everybody (only to me, please :)))) but trading them on ebay is a f*cking thing... (i saw so much guys selling dj sets or self-mixed compilations on ebay... but ebay is another thing...)

wheezer

20th January 2003, 14:26

@piscaries

I dunno, that may well be mistaken for the numerous fake shared files that are floating around already - in fact some major label act even released their own fake mp3s to combat piracy, I don't know how effective of that is...

bitch one

20th January 2003, 14:31

not being a published artist, maybe i shouldn't comment. but how can you know for sure that mp3 swopping is taking money away from you?

many downloaders would never have bought the release. therefore your music has reached a large number of people who may not have been exposed to it otherwise. in the long-term, this should have a positive effect on sales, and on gig attendances - publicity is publicity. so there's some degree of balance. to assume that the only effect is negative ignores this positive effect.

wheezer

20th January 2003, 14:44

Originally posted by bitch one
not being a published artist, maybe i shouldn't comment. but how can you know for sure that mp3 swopping is taking money away from you?

excellent point, the same one that has been made for the software piracy scene for years - you think some 14 year old kiddie really needs novell edirectory and windows advanced dataserver?

however, I fear that the truth lies somewhere in between, i.e. that some would've in fact bought the record in question...

pille'ocheoni

20th January 2003, 15:47

just dont steal my tracks.or ill kill you!:)

marcel

20th January 2003, 17:19

thinking about the far future: in 10 or 15 years you will not earn a shit with records. there will be defenitely a medium with the size of a cd (or smaller) there you can put a whole genre on!!!!!!
the only persons who are willing to pay for records will be people like us. and, how many percent of the society are we? no majority or??
so what will come: the last century was the century of the recorded music (from the musical history view). it was the first and it would be the last im afraid. that doesn't mean music in generell will die because no one will have the time to make new music. in the future the artists will be living from money they get for their performances, they will go to want more money for performing, so that they can live from it. thats it, thats the future(and it will become in some ways like the past with the behavior towards music). maybe it will be better in some ways but also it will be more worse in some ways

"with every innovation we will also lose something'
suicide in the new keysmagazine- interview (although it wasnt about mp3 it fits here thery well)

sorry for my bad schoolenglish.....

marcel

20th January 2003, 17:23

oh and something more: thinking about the past musicindustry making money with records. why was it possible to sell them? because of their limtiations(not copyable)
maybe thats once again there the musicscene shows the way for the society. economy always tends to eliminate limitations with neverminding what result could come...

Mirsha

20th January 2003, 17:26

My approach towards my mp3 collection is that the reason I have most of it is because they are good tunes which I will be completely unable to ever own on vinyl. What do you think are my chances of ever being able to assemble a full Sativae or Neue Heimat backcat?Very very slim so I don't see much harm in my collection of these tracks since it's not as if I would be able to line.

It's also obviously much easier to organise and listen to a mp3 collection, every vinyl I buy I rip and store it away so I can put it on a playlist. It doesn't help that I don't own decks so I can't play with vinyl anyway and I find firing up Traktor with a list made entirely from records I own is a good way of getting to know your tracks and fiddle about to try and get some practice for the real technics.

For me I do actually get a kick out of owning bits of vinyl goodness. I like being able to flash that white label of Chan 'n' Mikes 3/4 about I've got but I could hardly do that with an mp3 because they aren't as rare. With mp3 the show off factor comes in a lot more for me by having mixes, I've got a six hour set by Landstrumm and a gig of local DJs stuff (including my first ever night on pills, all 5 hours of it) that I'm proud to have and share.

Mp3's have their pros and cons and I'm sure the situation will only drop further into decline as the price of technology such as final scratch comes down putting it in the reach of more people. I know one person who's completely stopped buying records since purchasing FS and I do really belive this is the wrong way to go for now. It'll be interesting to see if selling tunes over the internet would actually work or not. Doing it this way you take all the costs of pressing, distribution and promotion out of the equation and the price you're charging is almost raw profit, all you have to pay for is bandwidth which is cheap and a context management system to handle it. You don't have to deal with other people who might cause problems (Chan 'n' Mikes 08 is delayed for instance) and by offering a lower price tag you're making your music more apealing to potential buyers. Think of the games industry, people pirate games left right and centre because the price for a game is so high and they don't want to throw away 50 quid or more on a game they may not even like, if it was 20 then it would tempt the consumer as they wouldn't feel like they were potentialy wasting as much money.

Mirsha

20th January 2003, 17:40

Originally posted by cristian

MUX , I'm interested in knowing more about that... ! What is the technology?

Don't get your hopes up too much about it actally being viable. Phillips hold the patent on CDs and if copy protection were used then sales of blank CDs would fall cutting into their profits, they are directly opposing many copy protection schemes and have a R&D division who aim's are to defeat copy protection systems.

Apple are the other champions in the digital copy warfare, they have stated simply that they will never implement in any Apple hardware or software any system designed to limitthe ability of the user to copy information.

Microsoft can't very well implement digital restraints now as this will push those of us who feel this defies our rights into using Macs or Unix, their direct competitors, which will if not at least damaging their sales will put more finance in their competitors which will allow them to compete more aggresively.

I would like to live in a free society where information is freely passed from any node to any other node with no cost involved. I mean look at all the utter commercial shite that floods the charts of every country, how much of that do you still think would get to number one if the groups weren't backed by large powerful corporations who simply flood the populace with massive advertisements due to their financial resources. Let's make the music scene about the music rather than who's on the biggest label with the most money to back them up. I'm fed up of this Hawtin/Mills/Beyer shit, Tomas Nordstrom is the name at the top of my list to see now but no one local is going to book him as he's not a big name DJ. Fuck that I say, give me a decent job and I'll put on my own night giving unknowns a chance to play since so few other people are willing to take the risk.

Sheridan

20th January 2003, 17:50

I think in the end people will still buy music. the record industry thought blank cassette tapes were going to kill the industry. but it didn't. granted cd burning and file sharing is a lot quicker but I still think that the majority of people will still buy records. and believe it or not but the one industry that is being hurt the most from cd-rs and mp3 is the graphic design bussiness. since in the end you are still getting the music, but not the cover and liner notes. my friend was trying to get a design job as an album cover designer and everyone kept telling him that no one new was getting hired because of piracy.
this is a touchy subject that could be argued indefinitely. I myself have downloaded mp3s and burned cd-rs. I burned and received burned copies a lot this past year only because I was at school and was too poor to buy new music. because of that I have been turned onto so much new music it is incredible. but I do plan on buying the artists albums when I can. because I honestly hate having cd-rs. I have no track listing most of the time. some guys crappy hand writting all over the cd. it just isn't the same. I know that it is 'stealing' but I myself am using it as an introduction to new artists. and like I said am going to buy the albums. so I can have the finished product, and so I maintain sound quality since cd-rs are lower in sound quality than pressed cds.

@ cristian. I love the idea of the ftp server and am getting ready to post some stuff on there myself. I want to post my own tracks and dj sets which I guess is why it was made. but how do you feel about other peoples live sets? I was not planning on putting up mp3s of songs from albums but I have some old mix tapes of stuff no one can get anymore. like a neil landstrumm live set from 96. would stuff like that be ok?

Weishaupt

20th January 2003, 18:00

yes..its a really brilliant idea.................

wheezer

20th January 2003, 18:10

Originally posted by marcel
the last century was the century of the recorded music

I dunno, I think it's a big step mentally from "owning" a piece of music on a medium like a cd/vinyl/cassette from a specific artist to some having allocated some bits in some network for a certain track/artist/genre - same goes to a lesser extent for singular mediums emcompassing entire genres (plus that is a highly theoretical concept since somebody has to define that genre exactly, and I'll be sure that somebody else will find track xyz missing from said genre compilation, thus making it "incomplete" again).

Perhaps that's another concept behind these Aphex Twin record boxes that don't fit anywhere, that it makes it a unique collectible to own, but personally I think the man just wants to see this thing whereever he goes lol

Originally posted by marcel
everyone kept telling him that no one new was getting hired because of piracy

well isn't that the RIAA's general scapegoat for shrinking profits?

c s

20th January 2003, 18:11

Originally posted by Mirsha
Apple are the other champions in the digital copy warfare, they have stated simply that they will never implement in any Apple hardware or software any system designed to limitthe ability of the user to copy information.

well, afaik they still haven't made a clear statement concerning TCPA which is the real threat (i consider it a threat) coming up for users at least on pcs, whatever os they run as DRM will then be built into the processor. cd copy protections have all been hacked, they'll always be and the industry knows that, that's why TCPA was invented.

if apple should remain the only company that not doesn't implement TCPA, there will of course be millions of users switching to apple, no matter what the price of the computers is. at the moment with only 5% apple users it doesn't really matter for the film/music industry what apple does/what apple users do, if they copy or not, so it's easy for them to promise they'll be the upright fighters for the rights of the users. but perhaps they only want people to switch and once they reach 50% i doubt they'll be able to resist the demands of the industry.

while TCPA, if it is not stopped, will start a golden age for the industry (for artists as well?) i think it's rather the real start of 1984, let alone the dangers that arise when all computers in the world are tied to central nodes for authorisation.

and as with other surveillance methods only a few freaks know about it, the majority doesn't even notice that there's something going on.

www.notcpa.org (http://www.notcpa.org)

wheezer

20th January 2003, 18:15

c s I'm really doubtful about all that "built into the processor" stuff, I have yet to see a system that cannot be cracked, what makes this different?

Plus behind Apple's CPU's stands IBM, not exactly small companies - furthermore there's efforts such as that of the Chinese, with the Dragon CPU, which you can bet on that it won't feature any DRM of any kind - what's to stop them from exporting those CPU's by the truckload if/when Intel,AMD etc. make the switch, thanks to supposed strong pressure from the RIAA & film industry?

c s

20th January 2003, 18:59

Originally posted by wheezer
c s I'm really doubtful about all that "built into the processor" stuff, I have yet to see a system that cannot be cracked, what makes this different?

the fact that it is inside the die of your cpu of your own computer, not on some copy-protected media. there are already mainboards with it, but this is only the first step. an isolated chip on the mainboard might be bypassed but you can't just saw off half of your cpu... lol the chip communicates with authorisation servers (encrypted of course) and decides what you may use, install, watch, listen to. and of course he knows everything about you.

of course hackers will consider this their greatest challenge ever but as physical hardware is involved, code is probably not enough.

Plus behind Apple's CPU's stands IBM

motorola i guess. all major companies are part of the tcpa consortium.

Chinese, with the Dragon CPU, which you can bet on that it won't feature any DRM of any kind - what's to stop them from exporting those CPU's by the truckload if/when Intel,AMD etc. make the switch, thanks to supposed strong pressure from the RIAA & film industry? [/B]

yeah but currently they far from being able to offer an x86 cpu, dragonball, arm etc. are only used in pdas i guess. and even if they had pentium/athlon equivalent the software will still be optimised for the 'licensed' cpus. software companies want to sell, so they won't make it compatible to 'rogue cpus'...

that's one thing. the other is that tcpa will even be inside small machines, such as mobile phones, pdas etc. non-tcpa hardware will be illegal in fact so hard to get.

'just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not watching you...'

gunjack

20th January 2003, 19:11

http://www.templeofblood.com/~ncc386/ubb_images/cliffnotes.jpg

grobelaar

20th January 2003, 19:14

I heard on the radio today that a guy from Sanctuary records released a statement today essentially saying that all this stuff about falling profits and the internet, mp3 and p2p filesharing programmes are bringing about the downfall of the record industry is absolute and complete bullshit.

Essentially he said that people have been copying music since someone invented a home recording medium - there's always been a group of people who have no interest in parting with money for music, but they do like to listen to music - in the past they tape their mate's tapes or CDs, then the CD burner enabled them to copy their mates CDs and now this new technology - mp3 and P2P has provided them with an even easier way of getting the more music that they would NEVER pay for any way.

The key difference is that technology has made this group statistical more visible. But to say that vast quantities of people are abandoning the joy of buying music is rubbish, it isn't just the nice covers and actually having the artefact - for many its more convenient and as many retail analyst will tell you, People actually enjoy spending their money. So I'm inclined to agree with this dude.

Philosophical I've thought that the major record companies should actually look to the products that they are selling. Their whole industry is founded upon market manipulation, advertising, reduction of choice and product ranges to increase margins and efficiency. Theyshould look to the actual products themselves and as to why people feel that they should be able get them for free with impunity and a lack of any sense of guilt that they are stealing something - perhaps this is because they lack perceived value in the publics' eye.

piscaries

20th January 2003, 19:16

so far all that has really ben touched upon is the computer side of things and how it will be more and more difficult to copy cd's on computers.. but what about duplicators? i can go out right now and buy a $300 rack mounted 1-cd-at-a-time duplicator and make those protected cds unprotected (at least in theory). as for the discs that are self protected, all it takes to bypass the protection is a small line on the edgo of the disc with a black permanent marker and the disc is no longer protected...

grobelaar

20th January 2003, 19:18

Personally, I'm opposed to stealing music. If I like some music I want to see the people who have made it get some compensation for their efforts. I do have a large collection of mix CDs which is a mix of stuff recorded at nights I've promoted or helped out with or ones I've downloaded off the internet or traded with other mix collectors. Often people at work mistake this for a big wallet of pirated albums and ask me if I know how to get the new Robbie Williams album - I usually tell them to pop out to HMV...

This is a bit of a grey area frem an IP point of view as these mixes aren't available to buy anyway, however, they are technically infringing the copyright of the individual producers on the mixes.

But they are also good promotional tools and often gives people a chance to check out a DJ or a new musical style and are particularly nice for people who don't DJ or make music (like myself) and personally if I hear a mix from somone that I like then I get turned onto their records or maybe go and see them play at a gig, or if feasible book them to play at Pure Filth...

Incidentally what's the score with uploading DJ mixes and Live sets to the ftp?

grobelaar

20th January 2003, 19:25

Incidentally where is Dungeon Master on vinyl... I seemed to have missed it... and I live in London so probably don't have any excuse...

I saw a promo copy in Camden Vinyl exchange - but I wanted one with proper covers - I've been getting into buying techno records based on covers alone at the mo... Its a good guage - if someone's willing to spunk loads of money on doing some colour covers and its decent artwork, I'll take my chances on the music - I can always frame the artwork if the music is shit...

Does it have some artwork, or is it a Tresor white cover special...?

20th January 2003, 19:47

yo Grobbs - you can see a little bit of the artwork of DM by clicking on the link above the settings/register.... banner above..... or from this click (http://www.no-future.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?&threadid=1072)

Yes , we have always worked hard on artwork , because I've have always been around creative visual people too ,who do their stuff for the same the reasons that i do ... and as you can sense from this type of web forum , our ideology as a label and cultural group has always been based around collaboration ..

Mirsha

20th January 2003, 19:51

Originally posted by grobelaar
This is a bit of a grey area frem an IP point of view as these mixes aren't available to buy anyway, however, they are technically infringing the copyright of the individual producers on the mixes.

If no profit is being made on the distribtuion of the mixes they are considered promotional material and it's legal to distribute them. The internet provides just such a free means of transportation so all your mixes aren't technicaly illegal at all. For instance the reason I'm into Neue Heimat is because after seeing Daniel Benavente live a year ago I downloaded one of his mixes then worked on finding out what the tracks were that made it up.

Mui

20th January 2003, 21:51

alls I can say is....ever since the death of audiogalaxy my cd buying has decreased an absolute shitload....because I live in a small town in the country it's just about impossible to get 'decent' cd's here for cheap I always download a few mp3s of groups i hear about before buying them.....now since I cant find a decent place with good mp3s I usually only buy cd's of people I hear on the radio.....which are okay, but not what I really want.......oh and that artwork for dungeon master is well good....I know I don't need mp3s of cristians stuff to listen to beforehand, so I'll be putting it on order soon!

Mirsha

20th January 2003, 21:57

Originally posted by Mui
ever since the death of audiogalaxy

www.slsk.org is where all the underground following went. It's very orientated towards electronic music starting life exclusively as a small scale file sharing program for an IDM mailing list.

wheezer

20th January 2003, 23:43

Originally posted by c s
[B]

yeah but currently they far from being able to offer an x86 cpu, dragonball, arm etc. are only used in pdas i guess. and even if they had pentium/athlon equivalent the software will still be optimised for the 'licensed' cpus. software companies want to sell, so they won't make it compatible to 'rogue cpus'...

I didn't mean dragonball, I meant the dragon chip.
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-978693.html
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200210/16/eng20021016_105161.shtml
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200209/27/eng20020927_104011.shtml
http://www.blxcpu.com/

(the latter articles 2&3 suffer from rather poor english, the last being chinese...)

this is certainly not on par with current western cpus, but workable, and there's a lot of money behind this, including software (os, desktop software, linux) development...

the cpu connects to the outside? how about a man-in-the-middle attack, simulating a connection from the server the cpu authenticates against? probably not workable in small devices (although newer phones support java and the like), but should be no problem to set up in any desktop machine - or set up one gateway machine for your Internet connection to handle all of your workstations...

what happens if the cpu can't connect at all, the industry can't require every computer user to have a Internet connection as well, that'd be against trade regulations wouldn't it?

invisibleplanet

21st January 2003, 08:34

when i first discovered Super_Collider's Raw Digits, earlier in 2002, i found 4 full trak mono samples on my favourite music blog, http://www.euroranch.org

i listened to the samples blind, and although I had heard and purchased their previous album, no one in my crowd had got into Raw Digits.

I can safely say, that without the mono samples, which I feel take nothing from S_C , and give everything to the listener, i wouldn't have had the chance to preview the album, which I later bought.

i think to provide some full mono-samples of an album, is ok for both artist and appreciator. check euroranch out...there are some great earlier Vogel techno mono samples, and some Herbert samples also (mono of course), and I find it's a great way to turn people onto new (to them) music. I hope you agree!

21st January 2003, 10:34

well , yeah , as you can see from our site (check the G.Lister preview info for example) , we always like to post a giveaway high quality full length MP3 preview of a track from the release , because I think the music needs to speak for itself , to get you to go out and purchase it... this is fine , its coming from us , and sometimes those giveaway mp3's end up being one of your favourites from your collection, don't they?

During the writing and recording of Raw Digits , I was posting previews for the members of this board , to get people talking ! - remember , I posted Messages-a-comin back in 2000 !

I am in favour of using mp3 for promotional purposes , small labels like us can really do this to great effect - its funny to see how far it can get , as a pre-pre-prerelease! - its like tying an address to a balloon and letting it float away!

Its the overnight bulk downloading of everything everyones ever done that does my nut in!! - also I'm beggining to get a bit freaked out by all my recorded performances out there ... some of them being shite (too drunk / tired / high to play) some of them being gems (too precious to be floating around in the public domain) .... I'm just lucky that I'm the kind of DJ who changes his setlist every time , otherwise , I don't think people would even come to see a performance , cos they have 3 on mp3 or whatever - and then I'm really fucked for income , and its off to the restaurant kitchens for me... See what I'm saying?

And as for Robbie Williams bulllshit at MIDEM last week - he's saying Mp3 downloading is really cool and funky - what a self-centered dick! - he's a fuckin multi millionaire!!!!

Tomoki

21st January 2003, 11:10

Yeah really, some of the mp3´s you’re posting are really one of my favourites.
This “appetizer” thing is really a good idea to get the people walk into the shops for buying the complete EP, album or whatever.

As Wheezer said it’s much more difficult for some people which live in regions that are out of the cities. If he has the possibility to here the high quality mp3-full-length preview he can order the complete thing via an Internet shop or go to penetrate the music-shop seller who hasn’t heard until now of the new No-Future release.

Originally posted by cristian

also I'm beggining to get a bit freaked out by all my recorded performances out there ... some of them being shite (too drunk / tired / high to play) some of them being gems (too precious to be floating around in the public domain) .... I'm just lucky that I'm the kind of DJ who changes his setlist every time , otherwise , I don't think people would even come to see a performance , cos they have 3 on mp3 or whatever - and then I'm really fucked for income , and its off to the restaurant kitchens for me... See what I'm saying?

Can you decide for your own if a dj-set of you gets recorded and if it´s already recorded if you give it away or not?
You can make something like the same as for the mp3-previews.
My proposal is to give away only a few of your most interesting live-sets to the publicity, so that it stirs up the peoples inquisuitiveness to here you in a club.

In my opinion the same set is fully different if you here it live or at home.

wheezer

21st January 2003, 11:19

overnight bulk downloading of everything everyones ever done that does my nut in

seriously, I understand that the principle of that type of behaviour is ugly, but those are exactly the kind of people that probably wouldn't be buying that stuff otherwise (imho), since obviously the music has no real value to them!

c s

21st January 2003, 13:22

Originally posted by cristian
I'm just lucky that I'm the kind of DJ who changes his setlist every time , otherwise , I don't think people would even come to see a performance , cos they have 3 on mp3 or whatever

well but how can this ever be a replacement for a real music lover? i mean being in club with people you know, with a loud & powerful pa, flashing lights, the option to dance, with the real artist being there in person... and on the opposite an mp3 recording of questionable 'long play' quality being played back at home thru awful computer speakers like many people have - this cannnot replicate more than 10% of the real experience i think.

wheezer

21st January 2003, 13:27

@cs

exactly, just like I seriously doubt that the star wars screeners being leaked ahead of release etc. really kept anyone out of the cinema...

c s

21st January 2003, 13:39

Originally posted by wheezer
those are exactly the kind of people that probably wouldn't be buying that stuff otherwise (imho), since obviously the music has no real value to them!

i agree. like others here i only download mp3s

- to check out if it's worth buying
- to get rare things impossible to buy
- to get live recordings not available on cd

it's only a bit different with 1:1 copied cds, these are a bit more 'interesting' i think as you have full sound quality and the cover - if you take the effort to copy it, but this can also be spoiled by putting albums into some unique packaging that makes you want the original - even standard digipack is a good means.

but even with a copied jewel case inlay i'd still buy the original if it's a great cd i want to own. if i don't buy it it just means wouldn't have bought it either if there were no cd writers - it's more equivalent to tape copies back in the old days.

c s

21st January 2003, 13:44

Originally posted by wheezer
@cs

exactly, just like I seriously doubt that the star wars screeners being leaked ahead of release etc. really kept anyone out of the cinema...

screeners are ridiculous anyway, not much fun to watch. i had one from 'minority report' and there was a clock like 0:23:89.787 running all the time, plus text like 'property of 20th century fox' appearing everywhere plus the usual bad sound & image quality - how to enjoy this?

wheezer

21st January 2003, 14:10

Originally posted by c s

screeners are ridiculous anyway, not much fun to watch. i had one from 'minority report' and there was a clock like 0:23:89.787 running all the time, plus text like 'property of 20th century fox' appearing everywhere plus the usual bad sound & image quality - how to enjoy this?

hehe I once had one that had chinese subtitles and a seemingly large crowd of Chinese laughing at every joke made in the movie lol

c s

21st January 2003, 14:22

hehe. lol

gunjack

21st January 2003, 15:28

the worst is when the guy in front gets up to take a piss8-()

DsD

21st January 2003, 15:36

it`s like going to the cinema. sometimes u hear people talking here them eating their chips and u think "why can`t this assholes be quite?" ;)

simon-roog

21st January 2003, 15:47

Originally posted by wheezer

seriously, I understand that the principle of that type of behaviour is ugly, but those are exactly the kind of people that probably wouldn't be buying that stuff otherwise (imho), since obviously the music has no real value to them!

I disagree, whilst this is the case for some people, I know plenty of people who would regard themselves real underground music lovers and have been collecting for years that would not bat a eyelid at copying even their favourite artists albums. I am always struggling with myself in formning an opinion on this matter because ultimately I do not believe in the suppression or holding back of technology.

At ther end of the day I have no sympathy for major record labels as they have been quite happy to reap the benefits when they have had complete control of the musical mediums and they have had plenty of time to discuss and solve these problems before consumer cd burners were released. I do not believe that they were not aware that this problem would arise and now who are the first to complain?

I sometimes think that the technology is not neccesarily to blame, social attitudes towards culture in general has been going downhill for years and the fact that our society has bred generations of people who want something for nothing doesnt help.
It worries me that fans of 'real 'underground music and culture do not even value musical creation enough to reward it.

Saying this however you could argue that the purpose of real underground music is not about fame and monetary rewards and that getting more and more people listening to it is the ultimate aim??

Django

21st January 2003, 20:05

*_break*_

most people say that "SafeAudio 3" from AudioLok is the safest way to protect audio cd´s.

*_over*_

DsD

21st January 2003, 20:08

@ Django: old cb breaker? ;)
break break break! ;)

wheezer

21st January 2003, 20:51

Originally posted by simon-roog

Saying this however you could argue that the purpose of real underground music is not about fame and monetary rewards and that getting more and more people listening to it is the ultimate aim??

well that kinda has been the problem with art in general since the industrialization began in central europe "back in the old school days like spike lee" as they say - suddenly, it carried a price tag...

I dunno, in my view, that is up to the artist to decide - certainly, even today there are people who have some sort of steady job to support their "fruitless" art...

I still stick my belief that this practice of mass-downloading music kills the value of singular works - as was mentioned earlier already, copying of music media is not anything novel, and people, even music lovers, self-proclaimed or not, haven't bought all the music they own for many decades now - did the people you speak of completely stop buying music then?

MUX

21st January 2003, 23:45

loads of great points...

it certainly got super pro's & con's when it comes to 'underground' music

ok. lets out it this way then?
would u be happy to download an eminem album?
or take the last Nirvana box?
that would like buying courtney a new pack of smak

grobelaar

21st January 2003, 23:51

Originally posted by cristian

Its the overnight bulk downloading of everything everyones ever done that does my nut in!! - also I'm beggining to get a bit freaked out by all my recorded performances out there ... some of them being shite (too drunk / tired / high to play) some of them being gems (too precious to be floating around in the public domain) .... I'm just lucky that I'm the kind of DJ who changes his setlist every time , otherwise , I don't think people would even come to see a performance , cos they have 3 on mp3 or whatever - and then I'm really fucked for income , and its off to the restaurant kitchens for me... See what I'm saying?

And as for Robbie Williams bulllshit at MIDEM last week - he's saying Mp3 downloading is really cool and funky - what a self-centered dick! - he's a fuckin multi millionaire!!!!

Hah, only speaking personally, but quite the opposite, getting a good mix only makes me want to go and see someone play even more - I see it as small compensation for providing something that is far superior to a lot of mixes available in the shops...

But the trading sites are rife with people who must just have hard drives packed full mix sets, I think it becomes an addiction - honestly though I mean some of those sets must be practically identical - I almost fell for it, but just keep my collection down to a wallet of 32 CDs, I try to keep it to one mix per fave artist, unless its a really good mix that is significantly different from the other - I'm probably guilty of having too many Neil Landstrumm mixes, and yes I do have 3 of yours Cristian...

So Cristian when do we get the UK tour (or even a gig..? :-) (can't imagine it being a big money spinner... )

Mirsha

22nd January 2003, 02:10

Downloading mixes and stuff definately becomes an obsesive compulsive thing. I've got a good 20-25 gig of mixes by various people and it's always growing, I almost never delete anything, even stuff that is maybe a bit naff. Part of this though comes down to personal philosphy that information should be freely available and shared and there are too many leeches just sucking up and not sharing. It gets worse as you get to know more people and grab stuff by them as you feel the need to keep and share their stuff so it's accesable to other people.

Point in note about the downloading/cash thing. Some time in the near future I'm going into my local to get them to order in a copy of TIVA 19 for myself as today I just listened to it on downloaded mp3 properly for the first time today and thats some serious tuneage. We're not all heartless bastards out to ruin ya's!

And I agree with Grobelaar would be nice to see you in the UK sometime, almost got to see you when you were booked to play at Pillbox last year (as their last ever guest DJ) but sadly Heathrow Airport and it's brand spanking new (at the time) computer system decided to go tits up delaying the flight just long enough that you couldn't make it up North. I was chatting with one of the promoters when he told me it would have been 3:30am by the time you showed up and I think said something like "Get him up here and we'll make him play down the quarry". Ah well, you win some you loose some.

Lady E

22nd January 2003, 13:57

oh so that's what happened to pillbox? we tried to reschedule but never heard from the promoter again...did they shut down?

just a quick rpely to basic about whether mp3 use really affects sales...

its impossible to know directly but a lot of the labels we work with are having a nightmare because of it...they are noticing a huge dip in sales. there are probably other factors too like general recession, but its a shame because they are pretty smalland dont have the back up of majors millions to weather the storm

but i do understand in places without record stores that they are essential, and its a bit like taping off the radio or copying albums, its fine to do it but not to do it exclusively, and not to do it to underground music that cant survive otherwise

simon-roog

22nd January 2003, 15:17

how about getting some motion started to make people more aware of piracy's affect on
small record labels. The trouble is, because of the nature of our music scene which focuses on dj's, we dont get to hear about the problems that small labels experience.
I would like to see a magazine like Jockey Slut produce some kind of special feature on this issue that interviews and draws from the people behind the labels, maybe this wont stop piracy, but it could have an educational impact on peoples ideals, allowing them to make a better educated decision.

I think also that we should have some kind of mp3 database on the net that gives all the benefits of mp3 but charges for download, therefore giving royalties back to the artist. At the end of the day internet distribution is far cheaper than vinyl distribution and using this method would increase margins for labels which could in turn make the purchase of music cheaper.
I am a Dj that buys plenty of vinyl and cd's, but I think for me, dance music mainly is about forward thinking and futurism. I sometimes find it hard to grasp why our scene still holds onto vinyl as the ultimate vehicle for our listening pleasure.

Sheridan

22nd January 2003, 18:20

setting up a database of mp3s for people to download and be charged for is one idea. but there will always be that black market. some kid will set up another database where you can download for free. even with governmental crackdown, there will be places like kazaa or soulseek that will pop up for a few days where you can download for free, and then shutdown and then pop up again. and people will catch wind of that and go to those sites. with the kind of technology and know how available these days I don't see any reason for it not to happen.

wheezer

22nd January 2003, 19:49

@simon-roog

but that's the thing, how is jockeyslut supposed to do a real piece with substance on this issue, if there is no proof for this really being the case? it's one thing to say that mp3s are killing your business, another to have the figures to back it up, coz anything the RIAA says is a fabrication to begin with...

@sheridan

definitely, the beauty of the net lies in its free-for-all setup, but, as in this case, that does bring some disadvantages with it...

Mirsha

22nd January 2003, 19:49

Sadly yes Pillbox did indeed stop putting on the night due to internal politics between the promoters. With a lineup that featured Dave Tarrida, Neil Landtrumm, Daniel Benavente, Tube Jerk, Michael Forshaw and Mark Hawkins, Justin Berkovi and finally Cristian Vogel in their last several months it's easy to see why I sorely miss the place. The atmosphere was incredible, everyone was always completely mashed and had the time of their life partying away the wee hours until the bouncers would shout to us at 3:20 am after we'd been going on too long "Fuck off and go home you cunts or we'll throw you into the fucking street."

There is nothing in Edinburgh now which really caters towards this style of techno which is why I'm fairly happy to see Dogma are getting in Mark Hawkins and Jerome in from Ugly Funk. I've heard good things about Test through in Glasgow which i've not been to yet and they've had a good lineup so far though they've not put on a night for month or two and are taking an extended berak of sorts at the moment.

Ah well time to start saving the pennies and eating bread and water so I can visit you all at Neue Heimat some time!

7875

22nd January 2003, 20:27

being that i dont have the convienience of owning my own computer i stay away from the mp3 side of things. artists should be compensated and therefore, i stick to buying wax. only thing that i crave on mp3's are the live sets. period.

simon-roog

23rd January 2003, 00:35

Originally posted by wheezer

but that's the thing, how is jockeyslut supposed to do a real piece with substance on this issue, if there is no proof for this really being the case? it's one thing to say that mp3s are killing your business, another to have the figures to back it up, coz anything the RIAA says is a fabrication to begin with...

Thats true, but I dont see that writting a piece on the concerns of record label owners can do any harm. maybe they could disguise it as something else like a study of how to run a small record label and discuss the problems surrounding it?? This could be a relavent subject in todays climate of general decline in dance music popularity?

bitch one

23rd January 2003, 10:17

Originally posted by Mirsha
I've heard good things about Test through in Glasgow which i've not been to yet and they've had a good lineup so far though they've not put on a night for month or two and are taking an extended berak of sorts at the moment.

not true - test was the other week. put yourself on the mailing list, send an email to joe@glasvegas.com

'a good line-up'? heheh. almost all those pillbox guests are test veterans, indeed dave and neil are founding residents. for the rekkid.

scary to think that test has been going 6/7 years...i feel very old when i think that. how can time pass so fast? oh yeah, right.

arar

23rd January 2003, 10:33

I am very old! enjoyed your set at the last TEST bitch one, but why no return to the sub club I wonder, TEST deserves a better PA than the Art School's...

Mirsha

23rd January 2003, 19:04

I'm definately going to come through for test at some point, I've got mates at Glasgow Uni who constantly moan about the lack of good clubs there (Test, Radar? And I don't even live there!). Drag 'em oot and get some decent tune down their throat. All I need now is the money!

wheezer

23rd January 2003, 19:11

Originally posted by simon-roog

Thats true, but I dont see that writting a piece on the concerns of record label owners can do any harm. maybe they could disguise it as something else like a study of how to run a small record label and discuss the problems surrounding it?? This could be a relavent subject in todays climate of general decline in dance music popularity?

naw, it probably wouldn't do any harm, but something as vague as that wouldn't really change things too much either I'd think...

simon-roog

23rd January 2003, 19:32

Originally posted by wheezer

naw, it probably wouldn't do any harm, but something as vague as that wouldn't really change things too much either I'd think...

I just dont think that many people appreciate the difficulty and stresses of running a label and maybe if they understood this better people may think twice and have more respect when copying and possibly feel more inclined to steer clear of the 'real' labels.
It wouldnt have a dramatic effect I admit, but could help alter peoples perceptions in the long run and that can only be healthy for dance music.

grobelaar

23rd January 2003, 19:47

Hmmm, it does indeed seem that the smaller independent and underground labels are destined to lose the most. Although the people banging the loudest drum are the big labels who are probably losing nothing or if they are, then its shaving a bit of the margins...

The increase of laptop mixing and technology like Final Scratch means that people who utlise this technology have to understand that they must adopt some ethic and priniciples otherwise they will be in danger of not having any music to play at all as falling vinyl sales will see the death of many independent labels.

This I think will cause a number of possible things to happen with respect to underground music.

1) Independent labels die due to plummeting sales - the death of vinyl for DJin purposes and the death of the 'Cult of the DJ' (hoorah - there's always a plus side). P

roducers become live acts who charge top dollar, utlising all this technology to play gigs (Clubs and Radio) which will be the only time and place that people will be able to hear their work. There will be no other way to hear this producers work as there will be no commercially available releases of seperate tracks on any format - save perhaps live mix CD or the odd release at the producers discretion.

2) DJs and music fans realise that while they find Final Scratch (or any digital mixing technology), their laptops and mp3 collection a great and convenient thing to use that if they don't put something back in and compensate the labels that are providing them with their music then they are biting the hand that feeds them.

3) Things bimble on as a mixture of the above, labels come and go, but general running a label is a hairy operation, people will probably want more security which will mean less adventurous and experimental music and more commercialism.

The first is an extreme that has a lot of appeal, and perhaps some producers might start doing this. The second is the ideal situation, but if a magazine was going to do anything - then I would say an article raising awareness of this would be for the better. As it literally comes down to an individuals personal principles and engendering a culture of integrity and honesty is needed.

From the labels' point of view and this is the risky thing, I think making the mp3 /digital versions of the music more accessible is a step forward and the key to making the second way succeed revolves around a new way of the music buyers and music makers supporting each other.

I've often thought that giving people who buy the record a dual format CD with audio version and decent quality mp3 versions of the tracks would be a bold step. Or perhaps the record gives you log-on details to download the mp3 versions from the labels website... Either way its accepting that mp3s are out there, only by not doing the 'prohibition' thing it makes it accessible to yourself and at least you can see who, what and how many downloads are going down.

Sorry turned into a bit of a rant - stuff I've had on my mind for quite some time.

Sheridan

23rd January 2003, 20:26

true, but then there is still that possibility that when someone logs on and downloads the mp3 that they inturn could send it to someone else and then that person send it to someone else and thus starting the whole filesharing process over again.

grobelaar

23rd January 2003, 21:48

Originally posted by Sheridan
true, but then there is still that possibility that when someone logs on and downloads the mp3 that they inturn could send it to someone else and then that person send it to someone else and thus starting the whole filesharing process over again.

Nah, nah, you've missed my point (not hard I was blathering an awful lot). I was talking from an underground perspective - Currently if you have a little label, you press maybe 500-1000 copies of a record, so sales start dropping off some DJs start using lap-tops or final scratch and rather than buy the record, they know a DJ who buys it and they record it (or they just download it from some site etc etc)

Now perhaps through naivety or perhaps through ignorance but people like this are going to kill of small independent labels - if that continues to happen then their won't be any label for either the DJ or the Final Scratch guy to buy any of their music cos it'll go out of business - so on this sort of level we have to engender this culture driven by ethics and honesty - if you are going to play someones tunes on your laptop or with some fancy digital mixing device go and buy the record. If you're just into the music and you listen to a tune then go and buy the record or CD.

Then from labels point of view I think perhaps thinking about different ways of selling the music, this is the tricky one as the internet is a great communication device its not very secure and its a lousy shop...

It sort of relates to my earlier philosophical point about that the big record companies should look to their products and why people feel that they should steal them and not even feel remotely guilty. This is sort of the other way round - if you can run a label shifting 1000-2000 records, then convincing that many people that no matter what format they use, they should ensure that the label/producer get compensated in some way, should ensure the existence of the label.

Maybe I'm being a bit too idealistic, but having the label site where you can download the music and then you donate you money to the label would be the ideal way and I'd like to think that people wouldn't abuse that - but they probably would.

wheezer

24th January 2003, 09:13

Originally posted by grobelaar
I've often thought that giving people who buy the record a dual format CD with audio version and decent quality mp3 versions of the tracks would be a bold step.

don't see what good that would do, after all if I have the cd I can just turn it into any quality (from lousy over decent to hifi) mp3 versions...

grobelaar

24th January 2003, 09:20

Its not about quality its about convenience and accepting these things are out there. So as a label you may as well be the people to provide them and hopeful engender a culture of people wanting to paying for the music and service that they listen to and use...

grobelaar

24th January 2003, 10:21

Hmmm, I just wanted to say that I’m not trying to tell people how to run a label, as, in trying to clarify a few points I think that’s how its coming across.

Perhaps the fact that I’m struggling to get my point across means that its not such a good idea, perhaps it is a bit hopeful that people would volunteer to pay for something that they can simply take for free, but then I was rather banking on people involved in underground music and culture could perhaps be coaxed into having some more ethics, especially when it came to the survival of what they enjoy.

But then Perhaps the capitalists are right and that if you have property then you must lock it up in high castles (virtual or otherwise) so that people can’t take it from you.

bitch one

24th January 2003, 10:37

Originally posted by grobelaar

Then from labels point of view I think perhaps thinking about different ways of selling the music, this is the tricky one as the internet is a great communication device its not very secure and its a lousy shop...

????????????? i buy nearly all my vinyl online. the internet is a far better record shop than any of the 'real' ones in glasgow..

i think trying to predict the effect technology will have is an interesting intellectual excercise doomed to failure...things always go in weird and wonderful directions that no-one imagined.

to me, mp3's have replaced tapes. which is a good thing, because tapes were crap.

simon-roog

24th January 2003, 16:20

Originally posted by grobelaar
Its not about quality its about convenience and accepting these things are out there. So as a label you may as well be the people to provide them and hopeful engender a culture of people wanting to paying for the music and service that they listen to and use...

I agree, for years Dance music has resisted a move toward more high tech mediums. I use Vinyl, cd and mp3, and as of yet no one is providing mp3 music as part of a legitimate retail site. Yes, some labels sell CD's but the bulk of underground records are strictly vinyl only. It has to change and move forward. CD decks and final scratch etc are extremely usefull as a tool for taking the art of DJ'ing forward and have been around for a few years (barring final scratch) . You could argue that its the industries fault because they have not given people who wish to use these technologies any other alternative than to create their own bank of pirated material. I just dont understand because pressing vinyl is much more expensive to produce and distribute than any of the electronic formats. You can also reach much more of the world in this way, helping the cause of underground music.

Sheridan

24th January 2003, 21:48

@grobelaar: I think you have some good ideas regarding this topic. I think that one of the reasons people start to burn cds and download mp3s is because of the price of a cd. most cds in the states cost on average 15-16 dollars. sometimes as high as 18. and I am not talking about imports. also people know that artists don't get much for every cd sold. one of my good friends mike burns cds all the time. and I asked him why he feels it is necessary. he said that because the artist doesn't get much money for the cd he would rather not give his money to the record labels. but of course he isn't giving his money to the artist either. but he did say that he would rather burn the cd and then send the artist 5 bucks or something which is a lot more than the labels pay them. so in a sense he was willing to pay the artist directly for the music like you were saying. I like the idea but in reality most people are too lazy and selfish to do such a thing. once they have the music, what else more do they have to do? actually write a check and mail it the artist. I don't see that happening with too many people.

JE:5

25th January 2003, 00:12

Heard something about this on world service the other night, Click
Here (http://www.internetnews.com/infra/article.php/1571941)

My only concerns about this is the fact it's bloody M***osoft!

thesnailsshow

25th January 2003, 03:07

I see this topic have lot's of replies, and that's good because it's a very complex theme to talk about.
99.9% of the people who lives in this planet has a music lover inside; almost all of us need new/fresh music to enjoy in a little moment of our lives.
I'm mexican and the situation here is not good at all, the problem is simple: a Pirate Cd costs 20 pesos, that's 2 Euro, and the Original one costs 230 Mexican Pesos, that's 23 Euro, and with 23 Euro I can eat a week and a half down here... I mean... Prices are out of control !!! what do you think that people will do ??? spend the money in the original... well, the sad truth is no, why ? because the economic situation is also not good enough to do that, and, because people can buy 12 pir8 cd's for the price of the original.
I really don't know n e thing about production prices, but if the original price is a little close to the pirate price (around 5-6 Eur), at least I'll be able to get more original music, and will not have to spend my 56K bandwidth downloading 1 album the whole night.
I buy original music regularly... It's a hard thing to do because when I go to the music stores I end with 8-9 cd's to choose from, but I only can buy 2 of them, so, If I want to listen to the other ones the only way to do it is downloading them.
I also think that decrementing the prices more people will be able to get more original music to enjoy.
As I said in the beggining of this message, this is a very complex theme to talk about; anyone talking about this can get into a contradiction or something like that. The fact is that this is a really BIG problem, and if we don't want to waste the music industry, consumers and producers have to make some kind of arrangement ASAP.
Later !