is it enough?

[piscaries]

with all of these protests and demonstrations going on all over the world, do you think it will be enough to make bush back down from military aggression in iraq? i'm young and wasn't around for the vietnam war, and i'm sure there were protests before that war as well, but it seems that their voices were ignored. it seems so odd to me that everyone i've ever talked to about the possibility of war is so against it, and yet bush keeps trying to sell this like the whole world is behind him. it's enough to make me feel very helpless, like no matter what he's just going to go into iraq with both barrels smoking no matter what the world thinks.

yehaaw.

[invisibleplanet]

i was a child during the vietnam war, but didn't realise what was going on aroung me at the time.

i think protests are the way to go, i just think we need to step up the pace also, in line with protagonists.

cristian posted a thread, before the holidays about a successful naked protest *g, and last year, i read that several african tribes of women joined together in a topless protest against a foreign concern's survey of their oilfields and successfully drove the corporates away...


and then the U'Wa, a forest tribe in Venezuala...their religious leader spent a year in fasting and prayer in communion with the earth in an attempt to drive back the oil deep underground after an outside concern had made test-drills on the land, and found a considerable amount of oil. the U'Wa spokesman said their shaman's energy had been solely directed at making sure the life blood of the earth was not spilt here....mysteriously, a second test drill found no oil, and the U'Wa said their man had done

it's a tuff question you asked..is it enough? so perhaps mass protest needs to be complemented by individual protest.

....but i think ...i've gotta to ask a question now...

sound is so powerful, what do you see as a musicians role?? will u/ can u/ do u weave some of these conflicting cultural musical threads together? ...

[invisibleplanet]

http://www.no-future.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1619 ... cristian's thread

[alex cortex]

Originally posted by invisibleplanet
....but i think ...i've gotta to ask a question now...

sound is so powerful, what do you see as a musicians role?? will u/ can u/ do u weave some of these conflicting cultural musical threads together? ...

it´s possible but hard to do that in the music this board is dedicated to, i guess. nonetheless, i think, it´s duty to be concerned about the global situation regarding all its aspects (ecology, economy, politics...). i found the easiest way to do at least something, in taking role as distributor of information-sources. i put links that give good insight onto my webpage. it´s not to be meant as exhaustive canon of news-websites but a growing collection. thousands do that, either that way or with newsbloggers. piscaries, you don´t have to turn into a full-time activist. everyone can conquer feeling helpless by doing just something he or she feels able to do, whatever that may be. real change will come only if the majority of the people does have the time, possibility and interest into being informed and drawing conclusion therefrom to act.

[Sheridan]

is it enough? that is a tough one, and I think no it isn't. yesterday (saturday) there were an estimated 500,000 people protesting in Washington DC. will that make a difference? I don't think it will. the politicians don't care about what 'lowly peasents' have to say. they are going to do what they want. I don't know what an effective way to stop them would be, but I don't believe that making a sign and chanting anti war slogans are going to make that much of a difference. and that is why I didn't drive the 15 minutes into DC and protest.

[alex cortex]

but demonstration in this case is not only to show disagreement to the government. people in other countries can see the washington protests in their tv and be encouraged to do it aswell. that (corporate) media does show disturbed reality is well-known, but the more protest in as many countries as possible is going on, the less it can be ignored by the media. such a protest-movement may not have an imminent effect on the current situation. but in order to make a fairer world possible a general feel of global responsibility is needed, so why not fuel it this way.

[Weishaupt]

@sheridan
have a look, the 500.000 people would think like you?

[databombers]

i think we can protest as much as we like, but we (massive generalisation) put in place the powers that be, and now they pretty much will and do anything they want.

maybe we should try (not sure how) to make our goverments have a refirendum or sumthing, a big public vote before we the tax payer? send off, loads a troops to go and blow up loads of inicent people who have nothing to do with the war of the suits?

[zongkong]

Like some other people here, I don't think demonstrating against war really matters that much - but at least it's a lot better than just sitting around at home watching teletubbies or whatever.

databombers:
"...we (massive generalisation) put in place the powers that be..."
Do we really?
I don't really agree with that. Because what makes the world go round - money. Therefore, the people with most of the money's got most of the power - power which the state, not to mention us, the people of all around the world, is subjected to.
Which is very fucked up if you ask me.

Democracy means 'people's rule' - so how come the people don't rule?

"maybe we should try (not sure how) to make our goverments have a refirendum or sumthing, a big public vote before we the tax payer?"

tar and feathers for all governments and capitalists, that's what I say.
8-()

[invisibleplanet]

yeah, we need referendum to have true democracy

but i can't imagine what kind of laws/bills they would allow us to have a say on! do u think they would refer the decision of war to us? the people?

[Tomoki]

http://cicatrix.fragland.net/smurf/frodo_has_failed.jpg

[alex cortex]

geez... tomoki, that´s a nice one.

i agree invisibleplanet, referendum yes, but most unlikely. anyway, its more the money than governments that governs the people. with the removal of the fixed currency exchange rates in the seventies the possibility of running a country into chaos by destabilising its currency through wall-street speculation was given and used as method of pressure (see nicaragua or now argentina or venezuela). implementation of tobin tax would not only make vast money transfers less profitable but could even bring in enough money to solve some serious problems. referendums should be made about the use of funds and budgets.

[invisibleplanet]

the swiss have referendums...if it works for them...why not for us?

yes alex, i think the 'overseas development' budgets in every country should be held up for public referendum.

[alex cortex]

@invisibleplanet

yes, but also funding to the weapon lobby. if the people could decide about that, maybe states would rather run job programs than building new war machinery. but this is all speculative, cos even if this all would happen, who would control the use of the money. organisation like the uno, that were established to prevent single countries from "doing stupid things" are now nothing more than lap-dogs of few states. and organisations like world bank, that claim to fight this worlds problems are in reality the creators and supporters of exactly those problems.

excellent read on this topic:
eduardo galeano: patas arriba. la escuela del mundo al reves.

in english i guess it´s called: upside down. it´s from 1998.

[invisibleplanet]

yes, i found it here alex, thankyou !

http://www.sololiteratura.com/patasarriba.htm

[alex cortex]

cool. this is only a small excerpt, the actual book has more than 360 pages. check this here for lots of complete essays online by galeano:

http://www.patriagrande.net/uruguay/eduardo.galeano/cronicas.htm

(i hope you speak spanish though ... :)

[Triptonizer]

Will it be enough? of course not, the forces behind the scene that favor war because they stand to gain from it (weapon industry, military establishment, economic powers) far outweigh any street protests.

On the other hand, remember that thread in which gunjack complained about everyone always having a go at you when you're an american abroad
for supporting israel and not palestine. for attacking iraq and not attacking north korea.... it is tempting to tell people i am canadian, so we can have a pleasant conversation about ice hockey or something at least....
http://www.no-future.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1781

The demonstrations in Washington and elsewhere in the US at least showed the world that there's another America, and that not only in Europe the protest is growing. A big up for all those protesters, for the relatives of 9/11 victims who are brave enough to speak out etc. etc.

@ Weishaupt: wasn't Reich that psychoanalist who went bonkers? :D

[DsD]

some people say 500.000 people are not enough and because they are not enough the demonstrations are useless. imagin all people who are against the war would go to demonstrations and don`t say it`s useless cause they are not enough...

[alex cortex]

this is mankinds old problem "herd instinct". anyone should speak out against what worries him or her, regardless of how many they are. good to know there´s no definition of how many protesters make a demo useful. cos if there was it would mean that if only 50 people would stand in front of the white house they were wrong in what they do just by being outnumbered by those that don´t bother doing something.

[DsD]

50 people can be enough if they reach more.
a revolution starts with a few people and grows ;)

[invisibleplanet]

Originally posted by Triptonizer
@ Weishaupt: wasn't Reich that psychoanalist who went bonkers? :D

i believe all his work/writings/books were burned in the 50's by the USA Govt. He was imprisoned in the fifties, for having dangerouse ideas? and died a few years later, a prisoner.

[Sheridan]

Originally posted by databombers
maybe we should try (not sure how) to make our goverments have a refirendum or sumthing, a big public vote before we the tax payer? send off, loads a troops to go and blow up loads of inicent people who have nothing to do with the war of the suits?

I agree! I have always thought that the general public should be able to vote on issues that are so impacting on society. but I know that it would never happen here in the states. because our government likes to act that they are protecting us from knowledge that we couldn't handle. they are privey to info that they can't tell us all because of national security. so if we actually had a vote and the majority said no war, the government would be like 'but we should go to war because of info we have, but we can't show it to you'. also a vote by the people would jepordize their true intentions. the states don't want to get rid of saddam to 'liberate the oppressed Iraqis'. they want to control Iraq and it's oil.

[Weishaupt]

Originally posted by Triptonizer

@ Weishaupt: wasn't Reich that psychoanalist who went bonkers? :D

a example for the situation, if one have a idea and the other say no.............
but the human is so............intolerant...... .............
the people who say "be tolerant" are the biggest dissembler...........
i agree with i-planet...........


back to the topic:-)