"Music is prophecy"

[V Knid esq]

or so says Jacques Attali. "it's styles and economic organization are ahead of the rest of society because it explores, much faster than material reality can, the entire range of possibilities in a given code. It makes audible the new world that will gradually become visible; it is not only the image of things, but the transcending of the everyday, the herald of the future. For this reason, musicians, even when they are officially recognized, are dangerous, disturbing and subversive."

I really want to believe this.
What do you reckon?
Who is Jacques Attali anyway? I found the quote in Jon Savage's 'England's Dreaming'.

[stu pitaus]

hey im the first voter! musicians suck, its the good looking people of the world that are prophetic.

[Loz]

Aphex Twin prophesied the death of capitalism, you know.

Echo & The Bunnymen prophesied the birth of Thatcher.

The Beatles prophesied the coming of Christ.

Pink Floyd prophesied snow.

[dorksword]

For this reason, musicians, even when they are officially recognized, are dangerous, disturbing and subversive."
<img src=http://cache.katrillion.com/images/s/sting.bw_ftr.jpg>

[V Knid esq]

well sting is definitely disturbing.

[CV]

this was an interesting thread until Sting inevitably turned up...



or so says Jacques Attali. "it's styles and economic organization are ahead of the rest of society because it explores, much faster than material reality can, the entire range of possibilities in a given code. It makes audible the new world that will gradually become visible; it is not only the image of things, but the transcending of the everyday, the herald of the future. For this reason, musicians, even when they are officially recognized, are dangerous, disturbing and subversive."




Certainly worth a bit more discussion no?

[lucid rinehead]

i don't mean to sound like a miserable cunt, but i think music is a distraction, a bit like...well....everything else, i suppose. most music rotates around romantic, idealistic sorts of notions...like our happy community here (which i value a lot), ...but it doesn't do much about the general kippleisation of everything. on a smaller scale i think that quote makes a lot of sense, but its back to front - its a trancendent release but its looking back, or more likely diagonally sideways somewhere. it deflects society sideways a bit, but not so as you'd really notice.

ah, i'm just a miserable cunt.

[lucid rinehead]

ah that was unclear as usual, never mind, you get the gist of it

[V Knid esq]

The question is not about whether music changes the world or makes things better (one of my favourite lyrics is by Pianomagic: "won't save you from heartbreak/ won't save you from violence/ music won't save you from anything except silence") - but about whether music can be prophetic: whether the multifaceted representations that it is possible to construct in music somehow manifest ideas that are still only latent in the dominant verbal/visual culture... Perhaps somewhat akin to Burroughs and Gysin's idea that art forms that rely on the unconscious mind - e.g. cut-up writing - can "allow the future to seep through". This is not an idealistic notion - sometimes knowing the future can be a scary and sad thing, especially if no-one believes the Prophet (Cassandra complex). I found the original Atalli quote in a quite wonderful book about punk and the Sex Pistols, which suggested that the theatrical aggression and love of trash in early punk was a premonition of the complete breakdown of UK society that took place 2-3 years later (racist violence, mass strikes, rubbish on the streets, Thatcher elected etc) - by looking at the past and present and reacting hard against them, the protagonists were able to pre-empt an inevitable mass movement of society (and maybe, just maybe, by acting out the breakdown in adavance, created ways for individuals to escape the worst pressures of the mass movement when the wave eventually did break)...

[deccard]

music can be the same way phrophetic as a newspaper can be.
i mean it´s nonsense discussion if music can be prophetic. people make the music.
so in the end it´s just a discussion about people and about metaphyics/believe etc.
how we see/hear the world.
it´s not the future that counts. nor the past. it´s the now.



damn the second beer was too much yesterday....so have to snip some shit out of yesterdays post hehe
*snip*
...
*snip*

[nothinghere]

I think that quote is from his book "Noise" (which is quite good by the way). I agree is some ways with him, but you can never know the future. I believe he is leaning more toward how djing for example is a was a new way of making music. It is very POMO(I hate this term), a little of this a little of that, all put in the mix to make something new. This was and is a new way of making and experiancing music. We can see evidance of this kind of approach in architecture. POMO archetecture was an exageration of this approach, a little of this a little of that. Make any sence???

[deccard]

POMO?
POMO!
lol

is POMO a term or something like POstMOdern?
never heard that. and whose book "noise"?

[nothinghere]

Yes, POMO (postmodern) is the way all the "cool" people say it around here.

Noise-
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0816612870/qid=1016804055/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-5590739-3282366

[V Knid esq]

I am fed up with the constant acceleration of the postmodern world reducing everything to a blur of digital dust, as described by Baudrillard... I am going to campaign for a new school of Slo-mo Po-mo.

[Lady E]

if you watch the filth and the fury [FUCKING AMAZING FILM]then julian temple posits punk (1976 onwards, really) as a reaction to the utter breakdown of society, winter of discontent etc. thatch and race riots etc came later.i dont think it was a premonition of what was to come, even in an abstract way. it was what was actually happening. why did it happen the way it did? loads of reasons. we cant ignore the american influence, UK punk would never have happened as it did without the dolls, ramones, wayne county, richard hell etc - the trash aesthetic was strong with them dont you think?

UK punk became more resonant culturally because of the dub / reggae element

i havent read Jon Savage's england's dreaming and im sure i should. have you read Lipstick Traces by Greil marcus?

[c s]

Originally posted by nothinghere
[B]Yes, POMO (postmodern) is the way all the "cool" people say it around here.

8-() ridiculous...

[zombie ritual]

Yeah, "the filth and the fury" is a really good movie! And also "England's dreaming" by Jon Savage is a book I read with great pleasure, although it was only the german edition which is said to be abbreviated compared to the original. Savage has put in loads of knowledge. Of the - very few, as I must admit - books concerning pop culture that I have read this is probably the best and the most carefully investigated one.

[arar]

Nice to see Richard Hell mentioned...I dont think music is prophetic, the whole punk thing viewed from then as prophetic by some would have predicted, as is said, everything falling apart.. (which) it hasnt...and just think off all the wonky wobbly techno that is loved on this board...what the hell would that be predicting?,

..."new day, same shit" is always a good stand by in terms of prophecy, as is "The more things change the more they stay the same"

[deccard]

think off all the wonky wobbly techno that is loved on this board...what the hell would that be predicting?

it´s predicting that you gonna move your butt.

[stu pitaus]

your fuckin hilarious decca!

[Sheridan]

I don't even believe in prophecy. there is no way to accurately
predict anything. if we could we would all be millionaires. we live
in a chaotic environment. every second a new factor is introduced,
thus making the results infinte. there is no such thing as future music.
all art is contemporary art when it is first created. then it becomes retro.
I think in the end the answer is a lot more simple than people really want
to hear. thats why you get all this pomo crap. what the fuck is post modern
suposed to really mean anyway? sounds like some coffee art house crap.
just appreciate what you experience through strong art, literature, and song.
it is the interaction that is the most important. the meaning is lost as soon
as you begin to analyze it; over thinking over analyzing seperates the body
from the mind.....quote more tool, blah, blah you get the picture.
have a great weekend.

[V Knid esq]

Originally posted by Sheridan
I don't even believe in prophecy. there is no way to accurately
predict anything. if we could we would all be millionaires. we live
in a chaotic environment. every second a new factor is introduced,
thus making the results infinte. there is no such thing as future music.

ok - the human timescale is a complex, turbulent and multiplicitous thing, not a straight line from past-present-future... however there are certain forces, trends, movements that are going in certain directions... could it not be that by entering into processes that blur chaos and control, such as music making, we can escape the strait-jacket of analytical thinking and use our built in senses to spot the flow of those movements... to see a small part of the way that society or the evolution of a part of the species or whatever is going?

all art is contemporary art when it is first created. then it becomes retro.
I think in the end the answer is a lot more simple than people really want
to hear. thats why you get all this pomo crap. what the fuck is post modern
suposed to really mean anyway? sounds like some coffee art house crap.
just appreciate what you experience through strong art, literature, and song.
it is the interaction that is the most important. the meaning is lost as soon
as you begin to analyze it; over thinking over analyzing seperates the body
from the mind.....quote more tool, blah, blah you get the picture.
have a great weekend.

Is the answer simple? Is there an answer? Is 'pomo' supposed to 'mean' anything? To me, 'pomo' is a one-word signpost pointing towards MILLIONS of words written by some of the most dedicated and analytical thinkers of recent years... if it means anything it means what they mean... Michel Foucault, one of the writers most commonly referred to as 'post-modern' said something along the lines of "stop analysing, just observe a thing and say quietly to yourself 'this is good, this isn't good; I like this, I don't like that'". Well, I like ranting. I don't think it's separating mind from body - most of the time my fingers type faster than my poor broken brain can verbalise.

Damn I've got the bit between my teeth on this one, and I don't even know what I'm on about!

Aah, fuck it *glugs more booze and drugs and has a great weekend*

[JE:5]

Post modernism renaissance classics, out now in a store near you!
God I'm hammered!!

[stu pitaus]

your fuckin hilarious knid!

[arar]

Originally posted by deccard


it´s predicting that you gonna move your butt.


Thats not a prediction, its causal!

[lina]

To preface, I would like to point out the danger of understanding the following concepts too quickly. That kind of understanding, according to Heidegger, is a mere semblance, and not the real grasp that comes from struggling with something in order to make it one’s own.

In my opinion then, "Idle Talk" is one of the most critical points we have come to thus far since it speaks directly to the process of our own dialogue; to the possibility of our own self deceptions; and to our mutual covering-over. The concept of "Idle Talk" asks us to wonder whether any of this is what is seems, or at least, what we are naming it together.

In the section on "Idle Talk", Heidegger refers back to his discussion from the section on understanding, discourse, and assertion. Throughout the section on "Idle Talk" and despite his preface of not being "disparaging", he positions himself firmly from the perspective of favoring a certain type of understanding, a certain type of Being: Being whose understanding is "grounded" in one’s own experience in the world. Understanding that seeks to find the primordial source; the ‘about’ which brings one to a meaningful grasp of entities and contexts. In contrast, "Idle Talk" is posed as a "groundless" discourse concerning the topical ‘about’: a dialogue which presumes and represents itself as understanding, yet whose "understanding" one can never call "mine", since it merely refers to and in this way hides behind the belief that someone at some point understood this, so therefore it must be true.

This perspective seems to me to be accurate and valuable in reference to one engaged in phenomenological (or perhaps any rigorous) inquiry. But I wonder if this is the best or only perspective from which to explore the phenomenon of "publicness". In fact, Heidegger establishes early on that his discussion of "Idle Talk" is oriented toward understanding Dasein in its mode of "everydayness" and its "publicness". And although Heidegger seems to favor the private, non-ordinary, "authentic" modes of Dasein’s being, to his credit he hints at a critical direction, which I would like to pursue further.

But before that, I will say a few words to clarify how I understand his usage of "positive" versus "negative" phenomena. Heidegger describes "Idle Talk" as a "positive phenomenon" of Being. I am wary of the tendency to read this distinction of positive/negative as good/bad. In contrast, I am certain that Heidegger intends to denote something like ‘present/absent’. Hence, a "positive phenomenon" means "a demonstration of"--in this case, Being. Or in other words, "Idle Talk" is one way of Being, or a way that Being shows itself.

In the midst of a discussion about the concept of "Idle Talk", I think it will be helpful to define "idle". "Idle" refers to a state of inactivity. In usage, there is an implication of latency (defined as present or potential, but not manifest) or potentiality; not engaged, but could be at a moment’s notice.

As in, "the engine is idling": the engine is on, but not in gear--a slight shift will set the whole thing in motion.

As in, "idle hands are the devil’s playground": there is the sense that hands would otherwise be occupied, and even are given over to occupation--they won’t stay idle, but will eventually be taken up by some activity.

But getting back to my main point, and jump starting with a quotation from Heidegger’s section on "Being-there and Discourse. Language":

"Dasein-with is already essentially manifest in a co-state of mind and a co- understanding. In discourse, Being-with becomes ‘explicitly’ shared, that is to say, it is already, but it is unshared as something that has not been taken hold of and appropriated."

Incidentally, I find myself wondering about the use of the value-laden term, explicit? Explicit means expressed with precision; clearly defined; specific. Isn’t such specificity of definition an obstacle to possibility? Is an explicit discourse about Being-with (i.e. process dialogue) preferable? Is it likely to occur without slipping into presence-at-hand? What essentially distinguishes idle-talk from authentic discourse: authorship, presence, responsiveness?

Uhhh!

[amble]

me thinks that this Foucault quote has strong parallels to this music-prophecy discussion.
humans are allways willing to analyze things as exact as possible, at least in these days. but you can't analyze music from a certain point on (i just say 3/4 thread), just because you can't analyze the emotions related. music spreads its message in a very sublime way (well good music does...). i think that leads to a situation where there's less room for analyzation thus more room for interpretation.

so music/art is maybe not prophetic at all but can be pretty good interpreted in various directions some time after? and this is maybe po-mo then?

[stu pitaus]

lina, your post made my sphincter hurt.

[Sheridan]

I'm not really in the mood to really respond to the current
threads right now, maybe tomorrow. but I will try and add
maybe a few cents worth. I guess when I really look at it
I just don't see music as being prophetic because I see it
more as being about now, or that particular moment.
yes maybe the artist had the future in mind when creating
their piece but I really don't see any corelation between
an artistic expression and the movement of time. I think
that an artists style or expressions can dictate other peoples
style and fashion, most definitely. look at any major musical
style, there was always an originator. but any other kind of
foreshadowing would be minimal at best. this thread really
intrigues me and I think I will bring it up in conversation tonight
with a friend of mine that has many interesting view points
on topics such as this. off with the booze hounds!

[lina]

lina, your post made my sphincter hurt.


ooops sorry for that sir...ah spinal glant will not do it again!

[V Knid esq]

Hahahaha I've got a bee in my bonnet - I'm not going to let this one drop.

1) Lina - don't worry, Stu loves to have his sphincter hurt
2) Stu - you love it you slag!
3) Sheridan - the fact that a piece of music is about 'the present moment' doesn't preclude it from referring to the past or future... in my current blurred thinking, I picture any given moment of awarenesss or being as having many many cross-currents of information going through it. Some of these have causal 'momentum', and are likely to have particular results in the future (near or far). If a piece of music can be an accurate representation of a moment, then surely it can refer to the future results of whatever is happening in that moment.
4) I can't believe i didn't realise that one of my main reasons for raising this subject here of all places was that I have been listening to Messagesacomin non-stop. To me, those lyrics are speaking about precisely the themes in this thread - spotting patterns in vast seething masses of data and wondering if the future can be seen in them.

Chaos theory. A weather forecaster can look at clouds and tell whether the future is predictable or not. Sometimes they will know that the changes ahead will probably happen according to a known pattern, and sometimes all they will be able to tell is that the weather system is volatile and unpredictable. Some times the future is more obvious than others.

[Loz]

Music is prophecy only in a way that a lot of social trends follow music. The first punk bands were prophetic of the whole punk scene, but in reality those first bands are the ones who everyone latched onto and followed, creating the scene.

Anything which leads social trends can be viewed as prophetic of those trends, but in practice is doesn't work like that. Without the initial idea, the trend wouldn't grow.

The only thing truely prophetic is Mystic Meg.

[penciLneck]

wow. threads were actually good back in 2002.

[adsr]

Music is a deeply personal and individualistic expression and to me a form of communication......and I do think people have insight inside of them that while in normal day to day experience isn't expressed, can be expressed thru their art...(music)
One easy example would be autistic children w/ exceptional musical abilities...They don't have the ability to function in "normal" society, but are able to communicate thru music.....

So does this mean we have the ability to prophecize (sp?) w/ music....
yes - if we want to...If the music is being created for that purpose...
music isn't one single thing.....it depends on the person who's creating it...and what they are trying to express w/ it....

To me music can be any or all of the things you put down to vote on..
So I'm gonna need another choice on the list of all of the above...:)

[mdk]

pomo is porno with bad kerning.

nothing is the future, all is now.

not was, not will be, just is.

simple when you dont overthink it

[nikrem]

pomo is porno with bad kerning.

nothing is the future, all is now.

not was, not will be, just is.

simple when you dont overthink it

wow. bim pom bada perpignan. abba sense is now. bobbity bing bang baong bong, ling lang long. hear my schlong.

[mdk]

:)

[penciLneck]

eat my shorts nikrem, that was beautiful and you soiled it.

who do you think you are? steev?

[V Knid esq]

One way of looking at it is that music is, or can be, a more complex and detailed communication framework than language. Language gives away secrets. If you speak, a skilled observer, whether they are a scientifically trained psychologist, a linguist, or merely just someone smart who understands people, can make accurate deductions about who you are, what social groups and subsets you are part of, what motivates you and to a certain degree what you are likely to do in the future. Everything you say contains all this information as well as what you actually intend to say. Meaning is rife in all human communication including music beyond what is intended, and understanding that meaning gives you signs as to the directions that a person, a social group, even an entire country is moving. So even if a musician says their music means nothing (just as if someone says their words mean nothing) you can discover much from it.

I think we need Yee King in on this. He told me a lot of stuff about music and sound's power to transmit information but I was drunk and I forgot it.

[adsr]

I just realized that I raised a question in my mind..
can we communicate thru music w/ out understanding what we are communicating?...

Such as w/ a child of autism...do they understand what they are communicating?...

There's a valid question in there somewhere...I'm just having a hard time explaining it...

[solitary_zen]

Music is a deeply personal and individualistic expression and to me a form of communication......and I do think people have insight inside of them that while in normal day to day experience isn't expressed, can be expressed thru their art...(music)
One easy example would be autistic children w/ exceptional musical abilities...They don't have the ability to function in "normal" society, but are able to communicate thru music.....

So does this mean we have the ability to prophecize (sp?) w/ music....
yes - if we want to...If the music is being created for that purpose...
music isn't one single thing.....it depends on the person who's creating it...and what they are trying to express w/ it....



This is pretty much what I was going to say. This was the original reason for music coming into being afterall - something that I think has become lost over time (especially in the last 50 or so years) as so much baggage has been attached to "music".

I think it is the most powerful means of self-expression and communication that we have at our disposal, though operating on a level too deep for the sanitised western mind to appreciate (though we certainly can get the odd glimpse, depending on the individual).

[mdk]

I just realized that I raised a question in my mind..
can we communicate thru music w/ out understanding what we are communicating?...

Such as w/ a child of autism...do they understand what they are communicating?...

There's a valid question in there somewhere...I'm just having a hard time explaining it...

i think i understand what you are getting at.

communication contains 2 concepts, transmission and reception (for want of better terms).
Just because im transmitting a concept doesnt mean that the receiver understands it and similary I may not be able to articulate what the concept is in my head. of course thats why we develop such a wide approach to communication between humans, not just spoken language, so that we can develop a range of approximations that can be passed back and forth reliably.

Everything is energy and energy is information. Communication is essentially the transformation of energy from one form to another.

perhaps the question should be can we communicate (through music or however) and actually understand what we are communicating?

Joe, you might be interested in Claude Shannon and information theory / entropy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory

can be a bit dry if you go near the maths, but some good food for thought :)

[Spandex]

Now we're getting somewhere. Let's go quantum.

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

Words don't do music justice.

[V Knid esq]

And vice versa :-p

[Spandex]

There's a quote I can't remember where I read.. go sommat like

"It's true that a picture can paint 1000 words, but there are very few sets of 1000 words that can be represented with a picture"

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

There's a quote I can't remember where I read.. go sommat like

"It's true that a picture can paint 1000 words, but there are very few sets of 1000 words that can be represented with a picture"

I just tried to find the source (and more importantly date) of the original quote.. couldn't find it. Anyone know?

[Spandex]

I have a feeling it was either in an AI book... Hofstadter or sommat.. or maybe in a Dennett book. But I'm not sure.. and I'm not sure if it was sommat they wrote or sommat they quoted :)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

I have a feeling it was either in an AI book... Hofstadter or sommat.. or maybe in a Dennett book. But I'm not sure.. and I'm not sure if it was sommat they wrote or sommat they quoted :)

No the original quote.. 'a picture paints a thousand words'..

[penciLneck]

have you heard of google steev?

http://www.worldofquotes.com/author/Frederick-R.-Barnard/1/index.html

and:


http://www2.cs.uregina.ca/~hepting/research/web/words/

[Spandex]

have you heard of google steev?

oooh get her :)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

"The original quotation is, "One look is worth a thousand words"; Frederick R. Barnard in Printer's Ink, 8 Dec 1921 - retelling a Chinese proverb."

Thats very different from 'a painting' isn't it, I never liked that version and I like the one spandex posted even less.

penciLneck, scurry away now, theres a good lad.

[penciLneck]

yes ok oh mightly overlord of doom.

looks like the original tram ad evolved into your silly quote, or non-quote as the case may be.

[Spandex]

Hey pencilneck.. you know you thought your alarm clock was malfunctioning and emitting a magnetic field that made you sense a malevolent presence? Turns out the alarm clock was fine and IT WAS JUST STEEV.

[penciLneck]

lol

bless him.

[adsr]

i think i understand what you are getting at.


perhaps the question should be can we communicate (through music or however) and actually understand what we are communicating?

Joe, you might be interested in Claude Shannon and information theory / entropy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Shannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory

can be a bit dry if you go near the maths, but some good food for thought :)


I think we do understand what we are communicating - I had to think about this for a day to get my head around it and it's awesome that you posted an url related to math, because I remembered that music and math (spatial reasoning I believe it is exactly) go hand in hand.
That is in cognitive psy they've shown that children who have the ability to learn to play musicial instruments at an early age have the ability to also be very good at math...the same neural pathways are used for both (I think that's what I remember from my cog psy classes)

anyways that being said....It made me realize that autistic children who are musicial genius makes sense...but also helped me to realize that they do understand what they are communicating...even tho we, "normal" society might not be able to understand it....I know I'm getting off the topic, but the thought won't leave my head..

[mdk]

its all on topic :)

i think i meant to express myself in a slightly different manner, we do understand what we are trying to communicate, but nothing can be expressed completely accurately due to the transformation of idea to symbol, except of course the symbol system itself. Thats what i mean in the we dont understand fully what we are communicating as our utterances and gestures provide approximations of internal concepts.

in a purely logical sense 'every word is a lie'..

just like Beckett and Taylor said innit..im lying now, and everyone lies.

the other topic about music and maths is one ive always been interested in ..partly because thats the 2 things ive been good at..although some would disagree ;)

the whole universe is rhythm and harmony.

i'll make sure my daughter is subjected to lots of late coltrane while she is a baby so she can start solving non-linear polynomials in her head ;)

[adsr]

actually the studies that they did were w/ classical music...you might not get the same results from coltrane....actually..
you may end up w/ a cool-ass daughter who can do quantum physics and when she talks about it...at the end of every hypothetical quandry she'll say,
"can you dig it, man?"
"yeah..."
"I can..."
...and for that...I say you need to add some Thelonious Monk to the mix and pepper it w/ a bit of Ella for when she needs some rest.........
:)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

So MDK at what age would finding your Deicide Cd's in her bedroom make you worry? 3? 4? :)

[AVX23]

retro drugmuppets are the future.

[emef]

..

[adsr]

retro drugmuppets are the future.

that's so wrong...lol..

but I guess it was the best you could say w/out using that devilish, dastardly, don't-want-to -do -right letter D!!....

[JonnySpeed]

check out all the old faces on this thread. respect.

[V Knid esq]

Course, the question of prophesy brings out the issues of fate and free will - if there is fate or destiny then of course it should be possible to predict the future, but if the future is up for grabs then less so. I've always thought that it's not that simple, though: time and causality seem to me to be turbulent systems, so there are parts that are chaotic and unpredictable and parts that are more stable and thus predictable. Does that make any sense?

[adsr]

Course, the question of prophesy brings out the issues of fate and free will - if there is fate or destiny then of course it should be possible to predict the future, but if the future is up for grabs then less so. I've always thought that it's not that simple, though: time and causality seem to me to be turbulent systems, so there are parts that are chaotic and unpredictable and parts that are more stable and thus predictable. Does that make any sense?

Yeah..

I think it's a bit of both...we have fate that to me would be our inherited personality traits...and then our free will...to me would be what we do w/ these traits....you can either go w/ it let yourself be governed by them and thus one's life would be more predictable....or you can fight against them and try to be more open to life and the different experiences that comes w/ it...and I think that's when you tend to have a life that is less predictible..

on the whole I think that people tend to just go w/ their personality traits and allow themselves to be predictible....and there is nothing wrong w/ that...it's safe and comfortable...
but those who tend to go against it....I think they are usually the visionaries....people who's live can't be predicted....

[mdk]

Course, the question of prophesy brings out the issues of fate and free will - if there is fate or destiny then of course it should be possible to predict the future, but if the future is up for grabs then less so. I've always thought that it's not that simple, though: time and causality seem to me to be turbulent systems, so there are parts that are chaotic and unpredictable and parts that are more stable and thus predictable. Does that make any sense?

sure, its also part of what i would call the philosophy of science.

Is there a point where you have such an accurate description of the system that provided with enough computational power you can accurately predict anything, or would you need a system exterior to this one to be able to model it accurately..theres a similar line of thinking for human psychology / neurology..do you need something more than the human brain to undestand the human brain?

also theres another side which is if you consider that the path of technology may have been trodden before then its inevitable that we are in fact a simulation..

so the snake eats its own tail, and i come back to where i started..there is no past, there is no future, there just is.

and steev, deicide cd's wont worry me..actually id be quite pleased because all mine are in the UK..id be much more concerned if it was something like coldplay.. :)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

and steev, deicide cd's wont worry me..actually id be quite pleased because all mine are in the UK..id be much more concerned if it was something like coldplay.. :)

heheh.. that has brung me visions of my mate Sion (a big Coltrane fan) having to listen to his daughters Fatboy slim single on repeat one time I visited him.. for like 6 hours :)

Theres a way you get through it though, BOOZE.

[mdk]

AARGGHH...NO...

i better be careful she doesnt become reactionary...i guess learning some musical instrument might help steer her the right way?

WHAT CAN I DO TO SAVE HER? SHE'S ONLY 2 DAYS OLD AND ALREADY DOOMED TO FATBOY SLIM???

:)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

heheh, you play the long game. You don't need to get worried until they're 14 I reckon :)

NO TELEVISION, NO RADIO, ELECTRIC LIGHT EVERY SECOND WEEK.

Someone told me a really good tactic.. it might have been on this board actually? You have a shelf of Books/records etc. and you say to your child you can listen or read anything you like APART FROM THE THINGS ON THAT SHELF. And then obviously you carefully hand pick the items on that shelf and they'll have gone through it in months :)

[adsr]

I think if you can keep her away from Trance....you've done your job as a parent...IMO....

[AVX23]

that's so wrong...lol..

but I guess it was the best you could say w/out using that devilish, dastardly, don't-want-to -do -right letter D!!....

DDDDDDDDD hahah DDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDD !

an yeah - was best I coulD Do - it's harD to get Deep with no D :)

cut anD paste just not gooD enuff.

[solitary_zen]

Course, the question of prophesy brings out the issues of fate and free will - if there is fate or destiny then of course it should be possible to predict the future, but if the future is up for grabs then less so. I've always thought that it's not that simple, though: time and causality seem to me to be turbulent systems, so there are parts that are chaotic and unpredictable and parts that are more stable and thus predictable. Does that make any sense?


Being able to see one's own future would be the ultimate torture I think (anyone here read Dune??).

[adsr]

DDDDDDDDD hahah DDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDD !

an yeah - was best I coulD Do - it's harD to get Deep with no D :)

cut anD paste just not gooD enuff.

NICELY DONE!!!....
I'm very prouD for you and your letter D!!.....

go ahead boy and throw that D!!...

[AVX23]

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
have some !!!! :)

@ Solitary Zen, reaDing some of the latter Dune books is it's own torture too - GoD emporer coulD be useD by psyops I'm sure :)

[ckpqerjwrpwp]

Course, the question of prophesy brings out the issues of fate and free will - if there is fate or destiny then of course it should be possible to predict the future, but if the future is up for grabs then less so. I've always thought that it's not that simple, though: time and causality seem to me to be turbulent systems, so there are parts that are chaotic and unpredictable and parts that are more stable and thus predictable. Does that make any sense?

Like William Burroughs said "When you cut into the present the future leaks out".. which I heard in the same Burroughs spoken word piece as the quote that made me wonder about the date of the "a picture can paint a thousand words" quote. Burroughs also reckoned that at the start of the 20th Century "Literature is 50 years behind painting".

http://www.no-future.com/erutufon/attachment.php?attachmentid=14 34&d=1152493818

[adsr]

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
have some !!!! :)



now you're just showing off...lol...

[solitary_zen]

DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
have some !!!! :)

@ Solitary Zen, reaDing some of the latter Dune books is it's own torture too - GoD emporer coulD be useD by psyops I'm sure :)

:D

[Lady E]

1. MDK and Ladytron, have you got a new baby all born and everything?

2. I cant do all the philosophy chat right now but in this song Mark E Smith predicts the IRA bombing Manchester.


Powder Keg - The Fall
You better listen
It's thin
It's a powder keg.
You better listen to me.
Take me home.
I don't want to go.
Take me back to the safe.
You know better.
You better listen.
It's a powder keg.
You better listen.
Retreat from Enniskillen
I had a dream
Bruised it coloured
It going to hurt me
Manchester city center
Caroline
Take me back
I can't get the bus.
Do you know what they say.
You better listen
he's a powder keg.
You better listen to me
Sickening in its infection.
His radioactive radio-head drips with powder
His aura, round halo, thin.
Listen to me.
Thin.
Retreat.
Head loaded people avoid bad luck.
Hives away.
Confined to the university in the town.
Powder, retreat from Enniskillen
I don't want to go.
Take me home
Take me back to town, Mark.
Don't you know, the town is a powder keg.

[Spandex]

1. MDK and Ladytron, have you got a new baby all born and everything?


Aye.. check the internet dating thread..
http://www.no-future.com/erutufon/showthread.php?t=20635

She's cute... looks more like b than marv :)

[grobelaar]

How does this relate to the fact that in the three or four years that this thread was started that most popular music seems to just be bad pastiche.

Is it bad pastiche, or am I just old enough to have witnessed the machine do a full cycle?

[AVX23]

we're now onto the drying cycle, having given it a few extra rinses ;)

and every time it goes 'ping' we reset the timer.

[solitary_zen]

we're now onto the drying cycle, having given it a few extra rinses ;)

and every time it goes 'ping' we reset the timer.


lol