What does 'underground' mean to you?

[V Knid esq]

wombling free etc etc... was just reading the reviews in the Wire, and thinking about all these CDR labels making 100 copies of their bits of music and that's it, labels that carry on for years with no ambition to be moneymaking or anything, selling to each other, but they keep on going and making connections all over the world and suchlike... and I started wondering who all the people who buy these things and collect these weird objects are... I dunno, what do you think?

[Hagbard]

These days I reckon the real underground is people who just put out mp3's. Physical media is the old flesh. If you can afford to manufacture vinyl and get it distributed can you really claim to be underground in comparison to pure digital music which is never directly tainted by capitalism? You no longer need to press vinyl to get music played in clubs so theres no excuse that it is necessary anymore. That's not to say it's not nice to have vinyl ;)

[V Knid esq]

But is it to do with money or otherwise, or is it to do with the secrecy and connections outside of the view of... well, of people like me?

[Phil]

Underground tunes mate. Thats tunes that aint on some cunt label like Sanctuary who fucking loose your invoice..thats tunes that aint been touched by marketing cunts isnt it. that remain pure...Example: The manor boys and the chelmsford crime club they are underground, GET ME

[pongoid]

Dunno if it's secrecy per se, or rather just gettin out there and fuckin doin it.

Example:

http://www.sublimefrequencies.com/


I saw a film by them, or rather two short ones back to back, and it was just a hand-held cam filming different locals around the world getting into what they get into in their own places.
Some of it was in Burma, Cambodia and Thailand, some in Niger, some up in the Maghreb.

The guys that shot the stuff just asked permission and shot it, without an fanfare of anything. They just trade this stuff, and sell CDs and DVDs to people who are interested. They'e not doing it to turn a healthy profit, rather just to reduce the costs of actually travelling, and publishing this stuff. I don't know if you'd say it's UG because it's not done with exploitation in mind, or simply because it doesn't use a massive hype engine, but rather relies on the merit of the material itself being put forward.


And BTW, Phil, you poxy cunt, any time you want to pop round my way and try to get a piece of me, you just come right on. I'll have you, and not think twice about it. Just make sure you settle your affairs before your trip.

[Spandex]

I think it's just a handy shortcut word to describe stuff that's not part of the gigantic marketing machine. Trying to distinguish between things that are "more underground" or "less underground" is pointless IMHO.. cos once you're out of the arena of gigantic posters all over town and adverts on the telly, it's just a matter of who you know and what you're into.. you have to find it... so one man's "underground" is another man's "utterly obscure" etc.

[grobelaar]

Dunno if underground has to be devoid of commercial viability or success. After all people need to earn a living and so forth.

Of course what you do with the proceeds and how you get them, ie your ethics is surely what makes something underground. There's no reason why something underground needn't be enjoyed by many, or indeed as a result of that cause a lot of money to be made.

I would say underground is a pretty hard thing to define, whereas commercial is pretty easy to define - focus groups, marketing, branding, monopolisation of the market and restriction of consumer access to choice.

Well those are my entirely unformed thoughts on the subject.

[pongoid]

I guess one might ask at what point does something cease to be underground. Does UG mean that you can't be subsisting on profits your making through the marketing of product or services? Does it mean "off the books" and not paying tax? Does it mean no radio or television airplay as advertisement? No adverts in papers? No full-color glossy flyers? It's rather a grey area. Is it making some sort of art without comprimises to how it affects others, or can it take audiences into account, and if so, how much of it is catering to the tastes of others, and how much is strictly personal aesthetic? Are ANY of these deciding factors?

[Phil]

Yes pongoid you are very correct.

Underground is no fucking glossy adverts, no adverts, no fyucking tv, no commerical radio, making no money, doing it without an audience in mind, and not giving 2 fucks, thats underground..so all them magazine industry cunts can die a slow death cus they are cunts..

[pongoid]

If you're not making any money at all, then why are you not just giving it away?

[Phil]

Its about control with me, forget the money aspect if some other cunts in the mix getting me to change something or make something hios way then its compromised..fact is If i can do something pure no matter how trashcan it is and some cunt from Sanctury wants to give me 250 quid then thats fine with me. Let them cunts have it, cus at the end of the day you would have made it anyway, and getting stuff put out is lush...

[gypsy_cream]

youre doin it for the wrong reasons if you just wanna make money out of it.......

thats another aspect of being underground to me.......you dont give a fuck about the money, money is just a bonus, do it for the love of music

[Phil]

Id imagine proper musicians care greatly about the money aspect seeing as it is keeping them alive, pay bills etc.. for the piss artist crew its just a fukin laugh anyway, underground, overground, sidewaysground..

[thembuzz]

i used to think i had a handle on what 'underground' music is, but i don't any more, and frankly i don't particularly care. stuff is what it is - i'm not really interested in whether it came from a 16-year-old's 4-track or satan's testicles

[gypsy_cream]

i kinda hate the term underground.........maybe if yer really underground you dont know what it is and you dont even know yer listenin to it haha

[Spandex]

yeah.. when i say "not part of the gigantic marketing machine" i didn't mean "music that doesn't sell" or "music by people who can't afford glossy print runs". But there's a type of music that ONLY sells because of the massive marketing budget and posters with pretty youngsters on them... music that's made with all the research and care that goes into the recipes for McDonalds, designed to appeal to a broad spectrum and push the buttons of popular culture etc... I think "underground" means "everything else".

[Spandex]

Originally posted by gypsy_cream
thats another aspect of being underground to me.......you dont give a fuck about the money, money is just a bonus, do it for the love of music

Yeah.. that attitude of "trying to make money doing something you love" rather than someone who's investing in Kylie's career.. but might just as well be speculating on property/stock etc.

[thembuzz]

one thing i do know: i'd rather listen to kylie than anal cunt

[Spandex]

It all gets messy dunnit... cos i have little interest in Justin Timberlake's early career in the mickey mouse club or whatever it was.. and that boy band.. but I actually like some stuff now... but then they spent a lot of money getting it produced by someone ludicrously funky... so I conclude it's not underground cos if it wasn't for the money machine driving it all that music wouldn't exist in that form at all.

I think that clears everything up. Got to pop out now but I'll be back later if you have any questions.

[Hagbard]

Originally posted by Spandex
It all gets messy dunnit... cos i have little interest in Justin Timberlake's early career in the mickey mouse club or whatever it was.. and that boy band.. but I actually like some stuff now... but then they spent a lot of money getting it produced by someone ludicrously funky... so I conclude it's not underground cos if it wasn't for the money machine driving it all that music wouldn't exist in that form at all.

Yeah they got Timbaland in who used to be very underground.. no hip hop label would touch him or Missy.. and then suddenly that style can be marketed and BOOM, CHECK IT SON, YEAH SON. etc.

[Claire]

having said all that, if it hadnt been for Si and mike, i would be Skinter than a mother fucker. So big up the Cassetteboy. Those boys paid my rent this month!! thats some fucking priceless acts.. Thanks a billion. and thanks richard

[Hagbard]

Originally posted by V Knid esq
But is it to do with money or otherwise, or is it to do with the secrecy and connections outside of the view of... well, of people like me?

But was it ever to do with secrecy? Wasn't it just geography and word of mouth? I mean didn't it used to be the case that if you shopped in Fatcat then you'd find out about people like the Black Dog, Or likewise if you were able to go to Submerge, Hardwax etc... The internet has folded geography and made word of mouth very loud for anyone interested enough.

Originally posted by Claire
having said all that, if it hadnt been for Si and mike, i would be Skinter than a mother fucker. So big up the Cassetteboy. Those boys paid my rent this month!! thats some fucking priceless acts.. Thanks a billion. and thanks richard

I saw the ad for their new Mix CD in the wire this month, nice graphics.. is it out yet? Boy i'm out of touch.

[V Knid esq]

Howsabout Underground Resistance then? They're well-known globally but they still try to retain as much as possible of their production and distribution through Submerge etc.

[Hagbard]

Ur will always remain deep than deep, but its only the odd few people with the wherewithall that Mad Mike has to be able to hold all that shit down, the good thing is I don't think you need to do that anymore to be truly 'underground'.. just a talent for writing tunes and access to the internet.

[KaOz]

underground--- gay

[TheWasp]

wank wank wank wank

[jukka]

underground=tracks made under the earth...point......dot........ com

[MUX]

mind the gap.
you get so much that you miss out on the special things sometimes with all this downloaded music. you wait wait and wait for something special...

i dont know. i guess i dont trust the underground either these days..

[Hagbard]

I rarely seem to find house or techno I find special online or on vinyl these days..

[Ladytron]

it reminds me of great Emir Kusturica movie from year 1995. the sounds track is also great. i'm sure MDK will love it.

eneter the underground (http://www.kustu.com/)



...i'm lseepy... g'nite all

[pongoid]

Some might argue that 'underground' carries a bit of subversiveness in its connotation. Thoughts?

[lotzik]

i agree that todays underground is all these guys at home that just publish digital music over the net. It's a cool state of every artist were he/she trully expresses what's inside im/er and does not filter the art with any marketing rule that each label thinks right.

sweet days that every known artist wishes he/she had again.

[Jeniffer Mills]

Two things come in mind: 1. A public transportation network that operates under the ground. 2. Roberta Hood and Goinz :)

[mdk]

Originally posted by Ladytron
it reminds me of great Emir Kusturica movie from year 1995. the sounds track is also great. i'm sure MDK will love it.

eneter the underground (http://www.kustu.com/)

...i'm lseepy... g'nite all

thanks for the tip..sounds like an amazing film...you always seem to know something cool i've never heard of..

you're my underground hero :)

[Ladytron]

ahhhh... finaly i'm someone's hero. just whistle if you need me, babe.

[JonnySpeed]

anything that isn't mainstream and is done for the love of the music.

the more raw and wonky the better ;)

it also depends on the country... stuff from other countries can be underground just because it's rare and different.

and even though bum&face is maintrain, techstep, Ray Keith stylee, is pretty underground.

[Mirsha]

Underground - "What the people who think they are cool think is cool"

[thembuzz]

hehehe. that's as good a definition as i've ever seen

[pongoid]

So what about stuff from folks who don't care about what cool is, and are just goin for it?