Skint

[Smartie]

Did anyone see this last night...... That couple that are expecting their 5th child, the woman gets 1000 quid in benefits a month.....!!!

And oh my god was she ugly........

If I ever saw a case for steralisation that was it.........

[Orang Utan]

Hmmm, haven't really got the point of the programme have you?
I'm getting fucking sick of the hateful spite poured onto the poor - it's getting worse and worse - society is becoming more and more divisive and no-one seems to be noticing or care if they do notice.
There's another similar thread about 'pikeys' or 'gypsies' on LD and I'm very worried about the level of hatred supposedly level-headed people are seemingly capable of propogating.
Grrrrrrrr.

[Smartie]

So the guy drinks like fuk, has 4 out of control brats, he gets his daughter to sign on for him, was up in court for assault on a police officer, with previous, doesnt work delberately so his partner can get more benefits than i get for doing a 40 hour week.......

Naw I'm not missing the point...........

Scrounging fuckers, they have a choice.....

Hats off to the Big issue seller though, hes making a mint for himself, good on him......

[Orang Utan]

The programme was dealing with the way various families are dealing with poverty - some manage better than others but they're all human and don't deserve to be demonised.
I just don't like the way people choose to sneer at other people who don't have the same skill at planning their lives as others.

[Level]

Originally posted by Orang Utan
'pikeys' or 'gypsies' on LD and I'm very worried about the level of hatred supposedly level-headed people are seemingly capable of propogating.
Grrrrrrrr.

Which thread are you referring to?

[Orang Utan]

There were a couple of them, but the recent one you started

[Smartie]

Hey I agree that there are some impoverished people out there that can't help their situation, but there are also a lot of scummy people who scrounge off the welfare state and dont deserve any share of my oxygen supply thank you very much......

[Orang Utan]

Originally posted by Smartie
a lot of scummy people who scrounge off the welfare state and dont deserve any share of my oxygen
Oh dear - not arguing for eugenics are you?
:(
I'm not debating that people scrounge but, unlike you, I'm interested in what leads people into thinking that this is a desirable lifestyle, rather than just blythely stating that it's because they are scum. I have a little more faith in humanity to overcome its problems, and for us to do that you have to try and understand instead of sneer at those whose lifestyles we don't comprehend.

[Level]

Originally posted by Orang Utan
There were a couple of them, but the recent one you started


This thread here http://www.littledetroit.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9039 was written very tongue in cheek immediately after the said incident. There is nothing at all in my opening thread where I put these people down. I have a lot of time on my hands at home just now and the silliest little thing in my life is a potential thread.

Later on in the thread there is some of Mr Butlers anti-irish nonsense (I don't know nor care if he actually does have a gripe with the Irish and I thought his explanation on the "Paddys day" thread was weak) and I thought I would go along with Kenny (the Irish chap) sarcasm and ability to laugh at the stupid stereotype associated with the Irish.

This is the second time you've pulled me up on here for something I've said on boards. I find it a bit hypocritical coming from someone who is only too aware of how you can easily misrepresent yourself on them. Re: your thread on LD with regard to something on 313. All this whilst having Joey Deacon as your AKA.

Get over yourself mate.

Easy.

[Orang Utan]

I'm not levelling any criticism at anyone in particular, just getting angry at the amount of hate and sneering there seems to be towards those less fortunate than ourselves (and yes, that admittedly should include Joey Deacon). It seems to be getting worse and it's the more casual unthinking silliness that gets on my tits more than the serious grouching about marginalised groups in society, not sure why though - maybe its casualness is more dangerous cos it's the sort that doesn't tend to get challenged.

Not sure what you're referring to about 313, but I'm first to admit when I've made a tit of myself - I'm only human and often contradict myself, but at least I'm prepared to challenge my own ideas and perceptions when presented with other people's views.

[Smartie]

Originally posted by Orang Utan

Oh dear - not arguing for eugenics are you?

Yes I firmly beleive hitler had the right idea.... ahem


unlike you, I'm interested in what leads people into thinking that this is a desirable lifestyle

I ain't doing no Sociology degree, and don't care.

[content]

Originally posted by Smartie

...don't care.

and that is the problem

[Lady E]

i agree with orang. im interested in why people behave like they do. more knowledge is surely the only way we can ever change things that arent working right.

people can get locked into destructive and selfish cycles of behaviour all too easily that are bloody hard to get out of even with lots of money and support. so god knows how people like those you describe, smartie, are supposed to manage it.

the whole benefits thing is a really difficult one for those of us who are taxpayers to reconcile, but why have successive governments not realised that investing money in giving people education and opportunities might mean future governments pay out less in benefits (and probably on the whole welfare state)?

£1000 a month isnt very much money to support 5 children on. it is a lot of money in the abstract, but they arent rolling in it on that sum are they?

[Orang Utan]

By the way Level, I wasn't having a pop at you for starting the thread on LD, I was more depressed at the predictable responses to your anecdote.

[Level]

I understand you may not be "LEVELing any criticism at anyone in particular" just at those "supposedly LEVEL-headed people" with a "LEVEL of hatred" :-)

I'm more than prepared to have my ideas and perceptions challenged daily otherwise I wouldn't be as good at my job as I am.

I don't really remember exactly the details of the 313 thing so I shouldn't have mentioned it. I just remember you feeling you were getting a hard time for something you said.

Yours

Terrence Higgins

[Smartie]

Originally posted by content


and that is the problem

Why should i care ? I have enough of my own problems without worrying about anyone else's.

Selfish maybe, but you have to be......

Emma, are you standing for election ?

[Lady E]

Originally posted by Smartie


Emma, are you standing for election ?

would you vote for me?

[Smartie]

Possibly...... ;)

[content]

Originally posted by Smartie


Why should i care ? I have enough of my own problems without worrying about anyone else's.

Selfish maybe, but you have to be......

Emma, are you standing for election ?

you can't be serious

[Orang Utan]

Originally posted by Smartie


Why should i care ? I have enough of my own problems without worrying about anyone else's.

Well you seem to care enough to watch a programme about them and sneer at them. Why bother? Haven't you got enough of your own problems than to be taking up a part of your brain watching morons fuck up their lives?

[Smartie]

No obviously I haven't, I was actually at a friends watching it.....

I'm sorry I love these types of people, I wonder should i include them in my social circle, I should welcome them with open arms, they are human beings after all.................

[Lady E]

well they are human beings that's true.

you dont have to be friends with people 'like that' but recognising they are human like you is a good start.

"there but for the grace of god go I" and all that.

[Smartie]

We should make the Isle of Man a ghetto, ship them all out there, chuck in a load of weapons and let them get on with it Battle Royale style.........

[Orang Utan]

Yes, what a fantastic idea, but surely it will cost less to just gas them?

[Lady E]

yes i've held off mentioning the charming sterilisation comment at the beginning of this thread. im assuming that was a prime bit of glasgow banter...

[tania]

smartie man, u should be ashamed of ur statements! i wont even waste any time arguing this but man, watch ya mouth!!

[Smartie]

;)

[Spandex]

I hate that whole "these people have a choice" thing...

Everyone has choices.. but some have fewer choices than others. It's an old Tory argument that "not all poor people are illiterate/criminals/drug addicts therefore poverty doesn't cause illiteracy/criminality/drug addiction". It's also an obviously flawed argument... like "not all people who smoke die of lung cancer therefore smoking doesn't cause lung cancer". If you seriously want to reduce the amount of uneducated drunk violent loons who live on benefits then you have to commit to helping them and more especially their kids to break that cycle. To suggest that it's anything other than a social cycle is to suggest that some people are born "bad"... 200 years ago nobody would blink if you suggested women were inferior... 100 years ago the same was true of black people... 60 years ago being gay was "not normal"... now it's ok to suggest that there's no helping "pikeys" or "chavs" or whatever we call the people we forgot to educate and give genuine opportunity to. It's not harmless... it increases the hate in the world and misses the point.

It's like we add groups of people to our list of "Deserving Human Beings" one by one... after a struggle every time. Why can't we just go the whole hog now... add all the rest and admit we're all the same? Like Emma said.. there but for the grace of god...

[TheWasp]

Originally posted by emma
yes i've held off mentioning the charming sterilisation comment at the beginning of this thread. im assuming that was a prime bit of glasgow banter...


no need to be sarcastic.....especially if your lumping the rest of us here in Glasgow in with big rubber heed

[TheWasp]

i'd also be interested to here what kind of area's you folk live in that are "interested in why people behave like they do"

[Lady E]

Originally posted by TheWasp



no need to be sarcastic.....especially if your lumping the rest of us here in Glasgow in with big rubber heed

why arent i allowed to be sarcastic? everyone else is. it's just he said in another thread that his comments about 60 second posting were 'just glasgow banter'.

[TheWasp]

don't you start on me today , i'll hunt you down and bite yer arse cheeks

[Lady E]

Originally posted by TheWasp
i'd also be interested to here what kind of area's you folk live in that are "interested in why people behave like they do"

i live in brighton, in a part of town which is pretty quiet and i dont have to deal with too many potential ASBOs and junkies etc.

However, that doesnt mean i cant have my views.

i just believe that understanding why people behave the way they do is the only way that cycle of behaviour can be changed.

Im going to be teacher training in Brighton, secondary English. later this year and most of the schools in Brighton have serious issues as a result of the very large number of disadvantaged children there are down here. So I'm intent in not demonising them, which would be an easy kneejerk reaction or my future job will be impossible, and part of the reason (to try to help and inspire people) for going into teaching would be rendered null and void.

[TheWasp]

if you haven't experienced being around such folks , how can you jump on big rubber heed so fast ...........

don't take this the wrong way , but some people want to take a step back and think about a situation before getting out their text books ........talk about taking the moral high ground...come on to fuck

[Smartie]

Good luck !! and I mean that most sincerely....... I don't think I would envy anyone in a teaching job today.........

[Lady E]

thanks smartie, yes well im scared but i want to do it so im also excited.

it will be part time so i will still be working with cristian whilst i train, and i will see how it all goes.

[Lady E]

Originally posted by Spandex
I hate that whole "these people have a choice" thing...

Everyone has choices.. but some have fewer choices than others. It's an old Tory argument that "not all poor people are illiterate/criminals/drug addicts therefore poverty doesn't cause illiteracy/criminality/drug addiction". It's also an obviously flawed argument... like "not all people who smoke die of lung cancer therefore smoking doesn't cause lung cancer". If you seriously want to reduce the amount of uneducated drunk violent loons who live on benefits then you have to commit to helping them and more especially their kids to break that cycle. To suggest that it's anything other than a social cycle is to suggest that some people are born "bad"... 200 years ago nobody would blink if you suggested women were inferior... 100 years ago the same was true of black people... 60 years ago being gay was "not normal"... now it's ok to suggest that there's no helping "pikeys" or "chavs" or whatever we call the people we forgot to educate and give genuine opportunity to. It's not harmless... it increases the hate in the world and misses the point.

It's like we add groups of people to our list of "Deserving Human Beings" one by one... after a struggle every time. Why can't we just go the whole hog now... add all the rest and admit we're all the same?

Let's do it. bloody good idea.

[TheWasp]

you will get tortured Emma ....specially because you are pretty , good luck though.

[Lady E]

Originally posted by TheWasp
if you haven't experienced being around such folks , how can you jump on big rubber heed so fast ...........

don't take this the wrong way , but some people want to take a step back and think about a situation before getting out their text books ........talk about taking the moral high ground...come on to fuck

i think you might want to not make such huge assumptions about what people have experienced or done in their lives.

[TheWasp]

Oh behave ......and read the first line of my post

[Spandex]

@Wasp

I live somewhere reasonably chilled now.. but I've lived places I'd very much like not to have to move back to.

If you think there's something wrong with what I've said apart from my current postcode then put yr money where yr mouth is and tell me what :)

[Smartie]

I bumped into this lovely fella earlier today, I've invited him round for a bite to eat and a little chat about Morality, he insisted on bringing the wine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/briggsy/chav1.jpg

[TheWasp]

Originally posted by Spandex
@Wasp

I live somewhere reasonably chilled now.. but I've lived places I'd very much like not to have to move back to.

If you think there's something wrong with what I've said apart from my current postcode then put yr money where yr mouth is and tell me what :)


once again read my post ............i wasn't talking about YOU in particular ........how about i put my balls where YOUR mouth is , and you can hum roll out the barrel on them ...

[Spandex]

if you haven't experienced being around such folks , how can you jump on big rubber heed so fast ...........

don't take this the wrong way , but some people want to take a step back and think about a situation before getting out their text books ........talk about taking the moral high ground...come on to fuck

There.. read it again... it still looks like you're implying only people who've lived in certain areas or had particular experiences are qualified to comment.

There are two responses to that...
a) you have no idea what experiences we all have had and
b) it's a daft idea anyway

If that's not what you meant, explain what you did mean (with a straight face if u can)...

If it is what you meant, don't back away from it. I'll hum "roll on the barrel" on yr balls when you show me you got some. Providing I can stretch them paper thin over a comb first.

[TheWasp]

no i can't say it with a straight face because i'm on the wind up and can't be fucked anymore ......


but do tell me how these people are qualified to comment ....i'm very interested

[Spandex]

What you after? An NVQ in "Arguing on the Internet"? :)

[Yer_Maw]

i read all the george orwell political books while i was in spain and, the road to wigan pier especially painted such a complete bleak picture of poverty. If these people didn't work they starved and would end up thrown out their house, and ended up hungry if they were injured or the pit wasn't open for business. Also the way he described actually being down the pit was made me feel claustrophobic. I want to make a distinction between this and down and out in paris and london, because there was and always will be folk at the very bottom.

The point im trying to make is that i think that the welfare state has allowed a new class of people to exist somewhere between the poor working class and that of the homeless. Im not saying that everyone on the dole (i have been for ages before) feels that they they are living a life of luxury, but what im saying is that those who feel that they can, (ive seen it), not work with a family, and get a house and a car etc simply would have had do work or starve in the pre war era. People like these just devalue the whole system, by not respecting the safety net they have, which is meant to be a back up not a means to an end. Im not saying benifits should be stopped, i just think the system lends itself to a bit of critism due to its univeral nature and the attitude of people who dont realise where they would have been 60 years ago. The dole should return to being our right, not something that makes you feel like scum when you go to sign on

phew!

[Lady E]

Originally posted by TheWasp

but do tell me how these people are qualified to comment ....i'm very interested

who are "these" people?

me and spandex replied to you. we are a couple of the people you are talking about. we told you what "qualified" us.

[Lady E]

Originally posted by TheWasp
you will get tortured Emma

cheers.

[Orang Utan]

Originally posted by TheWasp
i'd also be interested to here what kind of area's you folk live in that are "interested in why people behave like they do"
I was born in Leeds and have spent the last eleven years living in places like Woolwich, Lewisham and now Brixton - all regarded by middle Englanders as 'chavvy' places, but I don't see how that makes me any more or less qualified to have a view on the causes of poverty and welfare dependency than anyone else.

[Spandex]

Originally posted by Yer_Maw
People like these just devalue the whole system, by not respecting the safety net they have, which is meant to be a back up not a means to an end. Im not saying benifits should be stopped, i just think the system lends itself to a bit of critism

And I suspect many of us here have spent some time on the dole. It's just hardly surprising when we have a great mass of people with no prospects that a proportion of them choose this way of life above doing some shit job for the same money. Blaming the result on the people who don't manage to rise above the cycle of poverty and low expectation utterly misses the point. Worse... it helps sustain the idea that poor people are lazy or bad... rather than just stuck in a life that's hard to escape from.

Um.. so yeah.. I agree with u i think?

[TheWasp]

it's great to see how many of you peeps that like to prove your inteligence online can't actually read ......

I'M WINDING YOU UP .....get it ......

down of the high horses please , rattles back in prams and dummies safely place back in mouths.....yes ?

ok carry on

[Spandex]

Ar... had me going proper you crafty fox.

[Brownthing]

I don't think chav and poverty are necessarily linked..it's more a culture thing. There are plenty of middle-class chavs around.

[Spandex]

Originally posted by Brownthing
I don't think chav and poverty are necessarily linked..it's more a culture thing. There are plenty of middle-class chavs around.

And loads of MPs, GPs, solicitors, accountants, senior managers, journalists and lecturers from poor council estates?

I suspect that any definition of the word "chav" that's not closely related to poverty is going to end up including Jimmy Saville :)

[Brownthing]

Dont forget Christina Aguilera, she is the queen chav.

[Spandex]

She's 100% pure class mate :)

[nikrem]

there's nothing skint about blagging DLA, income support, and getting your rent paid,and wearing head-to-toe burberry/prada.watching that julie burchill programme the other night made me feel ill.