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V Knid esq
12th September 2004, 18:07
I am currently reading this BRILLIANT book:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802135870/104-3889690-2911161?v=glance">
http://www.erowid.org/library/books/images/storming_heaven.jpg</a>

...and it makes me very sad the way that clowns like Leary (great, glamourous and wonderful adventures though they may have had) turned LSD into a wacky, far-out thing surrounded by mystical mumbo-jumbo when it could have been the greatest pyschological tool of the 20th century - the early proper scientific research that was done on it in controlled situations with 'guides' to help people through their trips showed without doubt that it had incredible therapeutic properties including curing alcoholism and other compulsive behaviour patterns. Of course it was not all the psychedelic lobby that spoiled this - the US government was clearly rattled by the way it tended to cause people to question authority and not want to be good conformist productive workers...

Anyhow, it set me to wondering if there is any properly scientific documented research going on into psychedelics nowadays... lots of the 'entheogenic community' have a pseudo-scientific outlook, but do tend to get carried away with mystical / spiritual supposition, which kinda undermines their claims to rationality... There's Shulgin of course but his approach seems fairly subjective, and he doesn't tend to use statistically significant numbers of people in his tests...

One thing in the book that really made me sit up and think was someone comparing psychedelics with hypnotism, which for a good half-century after its discovery was confined to the music halls and cabarets, and only recently has been developed for its therapeutic possibilities - so maybe, just maybe, after decades of hallucinogens being the province of kooks and weirdos we might be headed for a time when the scientific community can take them seriously...

bitch one
12th September 2004, 19:42
alexander shulgin - oh you mentioned him

there is a big swiss group who quietly do lots of proper therapeutic psychedelic research

http://213.130.160.23/maps/research/

djerome
12th September 2004, 20:07
its no secret mdma was lobbied by some therapists for its therapeutic uses before it was classified as a schedule B(?) drug (here in the states). there's a clinic down here in beverly hills that used to use it.

V Knid esq
12th September 2004, 20:14
Oh yeah - MDMA was used for marriage guidance (!), and post-trauma treatment too. Be interested to see any research into Ketamine... There's Nick Spice's mate Dr Karl Jansen the mentalist Kiwi who did some studies comparing it to the near-death experience, but I'd like to see some more to back up his rather weird theories.

Cheers for that link B1 - looks v interesting.

V Knid esq
12th September 2004, 20:48
Feck - ketamine therapy for serious chronic alcoholics (major psychedelic dose done intra-muscular, with counselling and discussion during the trip) had major success (total sobriety after 3 years for around a third of the patients) "without any complications like protracted psychoses, flashbacks, agitation, or ketamine abuse".

Marolo
12th September 2004, 21:26
I did my thesis at college on ketamine. I think its going to be published later this year.

Theres hardly any scientific research into ketamine but I know there are a couple of people at UCL who have been doing quite alot of research over the last few years. Karl Jansen is seen as a bit of a charlatan. He used to inject himself with all the ketamine that was meant to be used for research.

emef
13th September 2004, 02:34
its a bit off calling tim leary a clown, knid
i read his book 'the politics of ecstacy' about 12 years ago and it was great

wheezer
13th September 2004, 08:57
that's an excellent book knid... gives me half a mind to dig it up and read it again...

V Knid esq
13th September 2004, 10:54
Originally posted by emef
its a bit off calling tim leary a clown, knid
i read his book 'the politics of ecstacy' about 12 years ago and it was great

Pfft, yeah he was charismatic, and yeah he had a great time but a) He claimed to be into turning on the 'best and the brightest', then later decided that acid should be democratised, but his 'research centre' was really just a party venue for the rich and beautiful b) He grassed up a load of underground people who had hidden and looked after him to the feds c) he was a cheeselord.

Orang Utan
13th September 2004, 11:09
Yeah, I also read Storming Heaven and it also convinced me that Leary was a bit of a bullshitter and opportunist.

Hagbard
13th September 2004, 11:25
I've seen that storming heaven book at the Spandex residence, always meant to read it. I think you're right about Leary, an incredibly charismatic, intelligent man.. but a total control freak it seems.

Huxley is a good read too natch.

decadnids
13th September 2004, 14:05
for true psychedelic mentalism read electric kool aid acid test - and the exploits of ken kessey and his merry pranksters. classic bit where they all go and visit tim leary, and he is in some room meditating, and wont see ken.

they did proper mental experiments with acid .

nickywalsh
13th September 2004, 14:10
drug talk is so fucking dull.

decadnids
13th September 2004, 14:11
Yes phil, but you still have to join in.

nickywalsh
13th September 2004, 14:13
zzzzzzzzz....yeah maanm drugs... whioch ones ave u done maaan...yer man it makes u feel like teddy ruxpins voice box msaan

decadnids
13th September 2004, 14:14
philip it's a good job you are not smart, or you could be dangerous.

nickywalsh
13th September 2004, 14:17
yeahh maan,u done some blue smarties today maan, nice, makes u feel like your smart and make wooden keyboards with clothes pegs as the F keys maan

decadnids
13th September 2004, 14:20
wow, thats like so right on there :
you're like so deep.
this is your moment. for a second it all makes sense. as you ride buddha full speed across the cosmos to the loud approval of the gods. science is an obedient panther lying tame at your feet, waiting for the command. cool.

nickywalsh
13th September 2004, 14:23
why u reclycing your own copy Graham

decadnids
13th September 2004, 14:28
Originally posted by nickywalsh
why u reclycing your own copy Graham

because I couldn't be bothered to think Phil.

bencodec
13th September 2004, 14:30
Originally posted by djerome
its no secret mdma was lobbied by some therapists for its therapeutic uses before it was classified as a schedule B(?) drug (here in the states). there's a clinic down here in beverly hills that used to use it.

I know it's been mentioned before, but the US govt has approved new therapeutic testing of MDMA as of last feb.

Mirsha
13th September 2004, 16:27
I've heard America still has some small scale LSD testing going on for theraputic uses which still continue to show very good results for people when used in a proper session with a psychologist.